best temps for making ice

[granite_grrl]

I was talking with my bf yesterday about ice. We're both anxiously awaiting it to get a little colder so we can start getting on ice (the exploring for ice poential has been fun too, but it just wets our appetite). So the question is what kind of consistent temps should I be praying for to feeze up some good looking seapage we found yeasterday.

I was thinking just a little below OC for water seepages, really freakn' cold if there was a decent bit of constant water flow??

[Fred]

There are more factors involved than just ambiant temperature.

The type of flow charging the system is an important factor. If the water volume is large it can be more difficult to freeze up. It will also take longer for the bigger volumes of water to actualy drop down in temperature close to the freezing point. A warm body of water with -10 and high output probably won't freeze up.

Wind is also key. A drip subject to fierce winds can freeze much quicker. When I was in Digby over the holidays everything inland was wet and soft but drips along the coast had started forming due to wind chill factors.

In order for ice to form you need consistent cold temps. Not too cold because then everything just freezes up and nothing improves. Usualy when the temps over night stay below -5 it's lots to form tons of nice ice. But in your case in Ontario the problem may be the daytimes. If it's warm and sunny all day it may counteract the overnight formations. There's not much you can do about that except pray for more cold temps.

My advice for you would be to seek ice at elevation and norh facing. You will be surprised how little you have to climb in elevation to see a big difference. When it comes to making ice you only need about 5 degrees cooler sometimes. Parlee Brook near Sussex is a perfect example. It's a sheltered gully that sees 'no' light, has wind blowing up the creek and is high in elevation so it's always 5 degrees colder. All those factors make for some excellent ice forming conditions. We've climbed there as early as October 15 and late as May 1st.

hope this helps

[mathieu]

Fred my friend, wind chill doesn't do anything, its merely a measure of energy that is sapped from a warm body, trust me the rock doesn't feel a thing when its windy. Don't you watch the weather network

[Fred]

I know what you mean that wind velocity has no impact on ambiant air temperature but it must do something scientific. Maybe aeration?? because I guarantee you that ice exposed to wind is more likely to freeze than sheltered. Duno why. Anyone?

[mike]

Curious. Body... body of water. The body is 80% water (or something like that)

I agree with the rock not responding to wind with respect to heat loss.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the does windchill affect water question that's bouncing around in my head.

I'm considering the fact that windchill works on the body by constantly changing the air close to the body with new cold air. The body keeps trying to warm the air next to it. This is why windchill makes us colder.

Wouldn't this work in the same way as cooler air blowing over warmer water and suck the heat out of the water????

I can't seem to wrap my head around this one.

Mike

[granite_grrl]

The movment of air will play a part in something cooling quicker, this is called convection. Its pretty much the transportation of energy away from the heated sorce by a fluid.......and now you've got all I remember from my one Thermo class 5 years ago

Oh, I did manage to dig up this link while trying to refresh my memory on this: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatra.html Not the most in depth explanation, but at least it shows that I'm not totally talking out of my ass.

Fred, I think you're right that our best bet would be to look for north facing faces. I do know that the flows that we were looking at on the weekend at least have the potential to fatten up....there were massive hunks of ice at the base of them that still hasn't melted away....it just has to get a little colder here!

[thicks]

Anyone know of any HOW TO webpages for creating artificial ice walls? It would be interesting to know what they recommend for temp and water flow.

[mike]

ok- seems to me that windchill (and convection, and radiation) cause the human body to work harder during wind sessions. Perhaps the amount of energy we consume to maintain a constant core temperature is why windchill reports say "it feels like -17C when it's actually -5 (I wish).

So what I'm digging out of all this is that a rock or piece of steel or whatever- will not cool below -5 in a -5 environment, no matter how windy- although I think that it will probably cool more rapidly due to convection and radiation of it's internal heat; a human body exerts a certain amount of work to maintain core temperature in a -5 environment and more if it's windy.

I figure that water does in fact cool more quickly in the wind- although it will never drop below ambient temperature.

Anyone else??
Mike

[granite_grrl]

ok- seems to me that windchill (and convection, and radiation) cause the human body to work harder during wind sessions. Perhaps the amount of energy we consume to maintain a constant core temperature is why windchill reports say "it feels like -17C when it's actually -5 (I wish).

So what I'm digging out of all this is that a rock or piece of steel or whatever- will not cool below -5 in a -5 environment, no matter how windy- although I think that it will probably cool more rapidly due to convection and radiation of it's internal heat; a human body exerts a certain amount of work to maintain core temperature in a -5 environment and more if it's windy.

I figure that water does in fact cool more quickly in the wind- although it will never drop below ambient temperature.

Anyone else??
Mike

Okay, this makes sence to me. I would have to think that you're right, that while convection sill cool things off quicker, it doesn't mean that the temps will get any lower than ambient.

Hmm, wish I knew more about solar heating, but how much does the sun heat air vs something like rock. The rock will collect the heat of the sun making it warmer than the air, when you have that colder air blowing around it will cool off the rock quicker than if there was no wind. This will keep the rock at a colder temp allowing more ice formation.

How does that sit with people? I don't know for sure that rock heats up more than air, but it sure feel like it when sitting on a sunny rock.

Rebecca

[Fred]

just think of the radiator on your car. You must drive into the air to cool it. It won't cool as efficiently if the car is running and parked.

[mike]

Basically Rebecca- I think we need winter to arrive.

I just checked the long term forecast. Sunday's temp is supposed to be 15C!!!!!!!!!!

WTF??????

Global warming is not a reality.... yeah right!

Boooo

[granite_grrl]

Basically Rebecca- I think we need winter to arrive.

I just checked the long term forecast. Sunday's temp is supposed to be 15C!!!!!!!!!!

WTF??????

Global warming is not a reality.... yeah right!

Boooo

Yeah, I wouldn't mind it being that warm if it wasn't raining at the time, then I could get on rock.

I'll second your boo.

Boooooooo!

[Fred]

get in the car folks. I'm sure there ice near by.

[The Teth]

Global worming will melt the northern glaciers, strengthening the Labrador current, diverting the Gulf stream as it passes Newfoundland and result in excellent ice climbing in Scotland and possibly even in France and Spain (even at low altitudes).

Rock does absorb more heat from the sun than air, making the rock wormer than the air. In fact, dark rock will absorb light and radiate it back as heat. It will heat the air around it. Wind does maintain a greater temperature deferential between the air and rock, which allows the rock to cool faster, which means it will get less hot during the day and transmit less heat to the ice.

These are my semi expert opinions as a Geographer.

Looks like it will be nice rock climbing wether this weekend.

Teth

[Fred]

Global worming will melt the northern glaciers, strengthening the Labrador current, diverting the Gulf stream as it passes Newfoundland and result in excellent ice climbing in Scotland and possibly even in France and Spain (even at low altitudes).

How are the worms achieving this Teth? are they tunneling and breeding underground and changing the temperature of the earth's crust??? LOL

[mike]

Your global warming theory is pretty one sided Teth. I didn't think that the world of science had figured it out yet.

I figure that global warming will cause higher rates of evaporation, increasing the earth's cloud cover, therefore lowering the amount of solar radiation reaching into the atmosphere. This whole process inevitably lower temperatures worldwide and mark the beginning of of the next ice age.

This theory has no educational background whatsoever.

Mike

[peter]

Global worming will melt the northern glaciers, strengthening the Labrador current, diverting the Gulf stream as it passes Newfoundland and result in excellent ice climbing in Scotland and possibly even in France and Spain (even at low altitudes).

There already is excellent ice climbing in France and Spain.

Pete

PS got an angle on ice climbing in Norway in a week. Keep you posted.