(Advice request) - Down Jacket for downhill-skiing

[Andrew]

I am in the market for a moderatly light in weight down-filled ski jacket for this year's skiing. I ski once or twice (twice if i can) a week through the snowy months and need a jacket/coat that will do the following:

1. Be plenty warm for the average walk from the parking lot to the doors at work

2. Be plenty warm for taking a walk in the winter up and down the streets and in trails with my girlfriend or on an approach for some sorta other sport

3. Break the wind while hurdling down the ski hills (poley, wentworth, crabbe, mont farlagne, sugarloaf/USA, sundayriver, etc.) and also keep me warm when I'm standing in line for the lift

4. Cost between 150 and 250

5. Available in all or mostly solid colour == BLUE ==

6. Have abration resistance. I can't have it tearing open if I'm pushing through trees and stuff in the woods


>>> anyone with suggestions and advice for where to buy, what to buy, etc... please discuss here and let me know. <<<

Here is a photo of a jacket I was looking at online and at one of the local sports stores (though, I think this jacket may be a little to fragil where rubbing up against tree branches, etc. is concerned).

photo 1 - Mountain Hardwear Phantom Jacket - Men's 224.95 CND free shipping



photo 2 - The North Face Nuptse Jacket - Men's 198.95 CND free shipping

[martha]

As warm as down is, It won't qualify for some of your options.

Perhaps a nice soft shell?

here is what I'm saying. It isn't about what is on the outside that keeps you warm. It is the whole system. And you need the whole system for it to be efficient and work well. The great thing about the new fabrics is that you don't have to be 'bundled and bulky' to be extremely warm. Everything does exactly what it needs to and nothing more...thus leaving you very able to move freely and be toasty warm.

smart wool base layer (it is so crucial that you don't wear cotton next to your skin in the winter!) polypro works well too, but a midweight long john top (wool or synthetic) is where it is at (for the record, the new wools don't itch), then a 100 or 200 weight fleece sweater/jacket, then followed by the wind/water/tear resistant soft shell. That would be plenty warm for the coldest of days. That is what I wear ice climbing except I throw my down on for extra long belays. But it sounds like you'll be moving most of the time anyways.

Here is an example.... all from MEC.

Wool Base layer or polypro base layer

mid layer

soft shell

Now that soft shell is really pricey for your budget...but the MEC Feratta would do nicely.

That comes to about 250$ plus tax/shipping for all three layers if you go with the polypro as opposed to Smart wool.....so for just a little more you are getting all this!! wooooot!!!!!! DO IT!! (And trust me...I wear the gear, and sell it and work with it for a reason!)

Of course The North Face and Marmot etc etc have things that fit in all these selections, but the prices aren't as good as MEC. Fred and I both have the TNF APEX Bionic soft shell and it is super.


IF you do go down...Down is expensive, so to stick in your budget I think you automatically have to go synthetic. Which is fine. a tad heavier and bulkier, but not enough that you'll notice. Plus Down will get wet on the inside from sweat and on the outside from snow. Down does not insulate when it is wet, but synthetic does.

Some down/synthetic jackets have a tear resistant membrane on the shoulders/elbows (high wear zones) but 95% of the time they are simply a light weight nylon shell. (hense why down jackets are so light and compact and used to insulate, not to protect from elements) So needless to say, they would still tear in the woods quite easily.

On top of all this, if you have a good hat and neck gaiter you should be toasty warm no mater what. I have a MEC neck gaiter and I always keep it tucked between my jacket and hat on cold days and it makes all the difference in the world!

hope this helps.

Cara 'the gear whore' Berube

[Fred]

Andrew,

I started downhill skiing when I was three but now climbing takes all my time. I can assure you that a down jacket is not what you need for skiing. I recommend an XCR Gore jacket with good base layers as Cara discussed. You get wet alot skiing. Wet is the worst enemy for down.

[Ropeguy]

Soft Shell,Soft Shell,Soft Shell.....Check out the LL.Bean website.They have a soft shell that is very similar to the NF Bionic however it has pit zips and I don't think the bionic does.I have one ,shipping to Canada is free right now from bean.They do sell the NF Bionic ,it's $20 cheaper than the LL Bean Headwall soft shell. If you must have a down they why not check out Old Navy,I know its not a popular out door adventure name but I bought one last Feb as a belay jacket, it was end of season,70% down and 30% waterfowl and it was $24.00,I wear it under my NF XCR hard shell snowmobiling and its very warm,Little bulky but at 90mph on the river who cares about a little bulk.I did use it once when I was snow shoeing and I was too overheated ,great when not moving but thats it... They have a reverseable on sale that I seen today for $64.00.My opinion is try out the almost as good as down and if your convinced it the one for you then spend your 300.00 on a name brand,I don't think you will be disappointed with the ON brand.

The floor is now open to make fun of my Cheap Old Navy belay jacket or the fact that I even went into that store.Cara I will be disappointed if you don't bash me or completely disagree with what I have said........

[martha]

no way man, down is down. if Old navy has it then giver. why not right? it is just for insulation anyways. If you needed light and not bulky for an expedition or something, then i'd suggest otherwise, but for occasional use.. perfect!

I just think it is funny that you go the pretty pink one with the fur collar that was on all the Old Navy comercials.... that is all I have to say.

[Richard Eh!]

hey andrew, having instructed and coached in both skiing and snowboarding for years, I have to agree with Cara and Fred. Layering is definitely where it's at.Although a puffy is nice to wear in the start area between runs in a downhill race suit, half the time a hardshell is still needed over that to stay DRY & WARM. As for riding on the hill (or skiing , as the case may be) I'd not opt for down, and furthermoe, I always preferred an outer layer with pit zips as you can really generate a lot of perspiration on a good day on the slopes/mogul fields/steep&deep or in the terrain park/halfpipe/X-cross course so it's nice to be able to "vent"

P.S. Ever wonder why ski school instructors who are out there in all kinds of weather for forty to fifty hours a week are not decked out in down gear?

[Andrew]

Okay. You guys have helped quite a bit. Now I understand what type of materials and how-to-dress for downhill skiing. I understand that down will get wet and stay wet, while synthetic will not. Kinda like 'dont wear cotton kayaking -- cotton kills' and people wear those 'wicking' synthetic shirts instead of cotton.

What I do right now for skiing is this:

Face:

Poly Face mask (for the colder days)
Fleece Neck Warmer (in addition to the face mask, or w/o mask)


Torso:

layer 1 : T-shirt (cotton) -- i know, cotton = bad
layer 2 : Fleece shirt or my Polar Fleece from MEC -- good, RIGHT?
layer 3 : Regular winter coat that covers some of the neck and goes down past my crotch level.


Legs:

layer 1: boxer-briefs
layer 2: looser fitting pants (cords or my prana pants)
layer 3: Ski-pants (fleece inside layer, poly shell)


Hands:

Brand new synthetic mitts with soft stuff inside, good grip areas outside plus nose wipe area I can't believe there's a 'designated' snook-wipe area! My old leather mitts used to just hide the snook

---

So what I'm thinking is that I should replace Torso-Layer1 (cotton shirt) with a synthetic wicking shirt, and then for my outter layer, either stick my my 10yr old coat which fits, but needs refreshing --- or get a new ski-jacket. One with fleece inside and a hard-shell on the exterior.

What do you guys think about that? Any specific jackets I should look at?

meanwhile, im gonna look at those links and check out what Fred was talking about.

Thanks everyone and keep the advice coming.

[Andrew]

I should add that I wear a really nice warm wool snowboaring (Pilot brand) hat that I've had almost as long as my 10yr old coat and the hat is still in perfect condtion and still functioning perfectly.

For my eyes, I wear an even older pair of goggles with dual-layer lense and anti-fog vents. They work quite well.

[Andrew]

Could someone explain the difference between Soft-Shell and Hard-Shell.

[martha]

Ditch the cotton t-shirt asap! no wonder you are cold! Have you ever wondered how at Ice festival people like Shawn and Dee and Joe and myself and Chuck can look like they don't have much on for clothes but never seem to be cold? Its cause we've got the right system going. It is expensive, but once you have it, you'll never go back!! and you'll have it for a long time!!

K.. back to business...your bottom layer sucks!!! forget the pranas or cords and get a poly pro or wool long johns to match your top layer. Then put on your snow pants.

Better yet, get rid of the snow pants and get a pair of fleece pants for your mid layer and then a pair of Gortex only pants (not insulated) for the top. That way you can leave the fleece pants at home on warmer days but still stay dry on the slopes or where ever you are with the gortex. the MEC sheild pants are awesome. I have the older version..the MEC Fall line Bib pant and they rock. They are the same pants that Fred has, Mat B has, Darrell S has and a ton of others...cause they just plainly rock!

I highly reccomend the bibed pants too. a few reasons...1)on warm days you can go without your jacket and not get snow down your pants 2)you can sit around in the snow or whereever and your shirts don't come untucked 3)they stay up no problem 4)you don't get bunching around the waist where everything is tucked in etc.

Mimic your bottom layer to your top layer and make sure everything tucks in nicely!

Now...regular gortex and gortex XCR are different. Gortex is waterproof and windproof and is the old standard in hardshells. XCR is all that plus it is lighter and BREATHABLE. It is awesome. but you pay for that. However, if you treat it right, don't wash it with regular detergent and all that jazz, it will last you forever!!!

A hard shell is a jacket like a Gortex XCR or plain gortex that is wind proof, water proof etc etc. It is the top layer of most '2 layer' jackets.

A soft shell is lighter, stretchy, closer fitting, and doesn't give quite the same degree of wind/water proofness that Gortex does...but almost.

sheesh...sounds like had better put a lot of things on your Christmas list!! hehe. or go shopping!!!!

It took me a few years to get everything I needed/wanted. I got my gortex pants and jacket one year as well as a good base layer. Then the next year I added some fleece pants and some good mid layers, then last year I added my soft shell and down jacket. Next year I'll be adding some soft shell pants and and XCR shell. (I hope!) And I'll need to replace my base layers. I'm going wool over Poly Pro though from now on. Just a personal preference thing. They don't get near as stinky as the poly. Thank Gawd, cause that stuff reeeks!!!!

[Mountain_Marc]

I'm going wool over Poly Pro though from now on. Just a personal preference thing. They don't get near as stinky as the poly. Thank Gawd, cause that stuff reeeks!!!!

I agree with Martha on this one. I bought an Arcteryx Merino Wool top before going to Baffin Island. It was the only shirt I wore for 3 weeks straight and it didn't stink at all. My friend, on the other hand, reeked of god knows what! I pitied the poor person sitting next to him on the plane.

[Andrew]

Cara:




Asulkan Merino Wool


Is this just as good as the MEC version? It comes in blue, where the mec ones onlly comes in black.

[Andrew]

Okay, i got the non-mec wool baselayer (60$) and the Arcteryx Targa (59$). I have a gift certificate for 100$ at mec, so that's 35$ for those items cost to me. yay for gift certs!
Thanks Alison and Tony for last years christmas gift

[martha]

Yup, that base layer rocks for sure.

why blue? don't get everything in blue! better yet, get a blue one and a black one! HA. I always get every color when I find a shirt I like. hehehe.

[Ropeguy]

I did the fleece pants under the North Face mountain bibs and sweat my nads off.....Not sure if its because the bibs alone are insulating enough,or the fleece is too heavy,You may want to keep that in mind......Spend the extra cash and get the good stuff....Its worth it!!

[Andrew]

Fred/Cara:

how do i post a URL and have text be a link. I know HTML but I don't know how to use these simpler PHP based codes.

in HTML this is what I would do

< a href = " http://www.yahoo.com/ " > text to be used as link < / a >

I put spaces in so hopefully it will show up what i typed.

Cya

[Andrew]

TEST

Check my website out:

Climb New Brunswick

Hope it worx!

[Andrew]

Geeze... its that simple? my goodness.

TEST

Check my website out:

Climb New Brunswick

Hope it worx!

[martha]

I did the fleece pants under the North Face mountain bibs and sweat my nads off.....Not sure if its because the bibs alone are insulating enough,or the fleece is too heavy,You may want to keep that in mind......Spend the extra cash and get the good stuff....Its worth it!!

a 300 weight fleece would be too much, but a 100 weight fleece like expedition weight long johns would likely be okay for you and your 'nads'.

[granite_grrl]

If you're in the market for a new shell check out Winners. I remember seeing Burton ski jackets there for a fraction of what they would normally cost. A friend of mine even got 3-ply gortex jacket for somthing like $100-150. Crazy prices!! I love Winners....

As for a fleece bottoms, a couple of my friends have the R1 fleece pants from Patagonia, and they swear by them for skiing. I have the R1 shirt and its an awesome weight for layering!

[Andrew]

Good idea, but I won't buy from winners anymore. I spend 3 hundred dollars there and new clothes and every single item was flawed or damaged in such as way as to make the articles useless. The one's that didn't seem to be damaged, lost buttons and ripped after just a few washes.

Winners sux.

No offense to u, just to winnners.

If you're in the market for a new shell check out Winners. I remember seeing Burton ski jackets there for a fraction of what they would normally cost. A friend of mine even got 3-ply gortex jacket for somthing like $100-150. Crazy prices!! I love Winners....

As for a fleece bottoms, a couple of my friends have the R1 fleece pants from Patagonia, and they swear by them for skiing. I have the R1 shirt and its an awesome weight for layering!

[Mountain_Marc]

Good idea, but I won't buy from winners anymore. I spend 3 hundred dollars there and new clothes and every single item was flawed or damaged in such as way as to make the articles useless. The one's that didn't seem to be damaged, lost buttons and ripped after just a few washes.

Winners sux.

No offense to u, just to winnners.

Man, what did you buy? That's the only place I shop. When you save money on clothes, you have more money for gear!

The one thing though, you should really inspect the clothes before buying them. To see if they have flaws, rips, missing buttons, etc. Sometimes i'm ready to buy something and notice things not quite right with the garment so i just leave it there.

As for your clothes being damaged in the washer, I can't explain that. I have clothes from there that are five years old and still going strong. Maybe you need a new washer

As Granitegirl said, you can pick up some cheap outdoor gear there if you look carefully. I found a nice Salomon hooded softshell in the clearance rack. I would've totally bought it but it was too big

Winners is like a treasure hunt, you just have to keep your eyes open...

[dcentral]

And less dirty then the VV Boutique

[Mountain_Marc]

W boutique?

[dcentral]

It's actually two V V's

as in Value Village, which out here can be a good score for outdoor gear as well.

[Shawn B]

Winners is way too expensive. New Hampshire...New Hampshire. Great old North Conway. Not only the best trad climbing but great score on deals...both clothes and gear. Esp during tent sales in the fall...scored lots of Mtn Hdwr this year - poly shirts for $10 zip off pants for $25. Too bad it pissed all weekend and only got one climb in. Gambler sale at Cadillac in Bar Harbour every fall is decent too - on Sunday it is 33% plus the roll of a die for your final discount off ticketed price...gear included. Nike and Adidas outlet in NC also great poly shirts and base layer stuff. But if you score Mardens at the right time...it is the best. Polypropelene, polyester and poly/wool blend and wool base layer...88 cents!! No need to worry about stink...was and throw away for that price. Great for adventure racing where stuff gets totally trashed in one race.

[Andrew]

I guess Winners is a treasure hunt. I was only 18 or 19 but I was shopping with my sister and she's pretty savvy. They were all major brand names, etc.

Now I buy from reputable stores taht will take their clothes back if they are found to be flawed, and so far, the only flaws in the clothes I've purchased since are that they shrink a little and that if you gain weight, they don't fit anymore

Hehe.

Andrew

[PaulB]

I did the fleece pants under the North Face mountain bibs and sweat my nads off.....Not sure if its because the bibs alone are insulating enough,or the fleece is too heavy,You may want to keep that in mind......Spend the extra cash and get the good stuff....Its worth it!!

a 300 weight fleece would be too much, but a 100 weight fleece like expedition weight long johns would likely be okay for you and your 'nads'.

Years ago, when I skied at Crabbe, I wore lightweight polypro long johns under a pair of Polartec 300 pants with very light nylon wind pants over top. Was plenty warm on even the coldest days. Out here on the Coast, I wear a pair of MEC expedition weight long johns under a lightly insulated pair of Columbia ski pants. I telemark though, which generates a lot more body heat than alpine skiing.

[Andrew]

Could you explain the point of telemarking?

[dcentral]

There isn't much if all you ski is Crabbe and Martock.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's partial makes it easier to get around in the back country. It's easy to get uphill with out needing a lot of extra gear.