Climbing wall in Moncton?

[martha]

I think that Dean needs to talk to Sean T in Nova Scotia. he runs a tight ship and a great gym. Ground Zero in Dartmouth.

I assume you meant 'ATC' and not ATV.

I think that most gyms don't allow kids under 12 to belay for obvious size and attention span reasons.

a 3 strike rule is very generous. I personally use a 1 strike rule and you are out cause one mistake with climbing is enough to cause serious injury or worse.
Mind you, the belayers get lots of time to learn to belay properly with one on one instruction from us. That and we stand behind/beside them with one hand lower on the brake line until they are very comfortable with it all.

[dcentral]

The gym here just got rid of lead climbing. They still over an intro course. But for the most part it was being under used, and people were being really carless with their technique -- especailly those who should know better. I wouldn't say leading is key to a sucessful gym.

Actually they converted the leading wall into a top rope wall with redirectionals and teathers on the wall to assist pulling yourself back in. It's opened up that section of wall and now sees much more traffic.

The kids situation is a balance, and depends on what you want your gym to be. Victoria has a lot of money, and this gym doesn't cater to a lot of kids. However their children slots and birthday party slots are always busy. I think they have found a good balance. However, they also have a strong climbing community to draw on.

You have to pay your bills, and if the climbing community is weak or small you may have to sacrifice being a climbers gym vs a party gym.

[Pierre]

I assume you meant 'ATC' and not ATV.

Yeah, that's a slip of the finger, the C and V are little close on the keyboard.

think that most gyms don't allow kids under 12 to belay for obvious size and attention span reasons.

I would expect if your in the GYM under 12 you should be accompanied by an adult... or that it's a group event where a qualifed belayer is present.

I think that Dean needs to talk to Sean T in Nova Scotia. he runs a tight ship and a great gym. Ground Zero in Dartmouth.

I do think the way Sean has run his gym is a definite plus ( It's still here and running strong ) . I love the routes and the frequence that they get changed, they seem to have some really good route setters. I have fun everytime I visit the gym and the people that work there are great.

The only negative thing I would have to say about GZ is it's not as welcoming to all target customers ( kids, families ). It's more of gym for climbers, the routes can be very challenging with a minimal amount of beginner routes.

I think anyone putting together a climbing gym should visit in person or via the web as many climbing gyms as they can to determine what works and what doesn't. Talking to owners of climbing gyms is a must - If you can learn from their mistakes the more power to ya....

Well I've wasted enough time today at work.. I guess it's time to shut my mouth and get back to work.

[dcentral]

You have to becareful with setting ages for belaying nad kids regardless if a balyer is present. Kids can be plus or minus their age developmentally. Some may be 12 and act like 14 year olds or act like they are 10.

I helped run a kids camp this summer and all the kids were excellent. Ranging in ages from 11-14. However, we were lucky last summer there were kids that would take off and threw rocks at the leaders who tried to get them to come back.

I'd say the minimum should be 14 and in some cases that's pushing it. The policy here is that kids who take the summer course can belay on their own after because they get a solid week of instruction. But you could also make the exceptions for kids who were part of a climbing club, where they get controlled exposure over a longer period of time. A couple hours 1 night is not enough in general for a kid under 14 to safely be on the floor. There are always exceptions but as a rule that is one try to develop and stick with. Too many parents will try and force you to bend a little.

[thicks]

I helped run a kids camp this summer and all the kids were excellent. Ranging in ages from 11-14. However, we were lucky last summer there were kids that would take off and threw rocks at the leaders who tried to get them to come back.

Not sure i understand how you were lucky or how the kids were excellent if they are taking off and throwing rocks. But this is more than a little off topic...

[martha]

Here is another suggestion for funding.

If you want to open it as a coop or as a partnership, involve some women. That may sound funny, ,but hear me out..

If you find a like-minded female who is an entrepreneur like yourself, it would be good for funding. Governement and quasi government organisations have TONS of funding for women in business. Many of them grants that don't require repayment if the business is still running 5 years down the road.

Speaking as an entrepreneur myself, though I've never taken any of these grants, they are all there. And in particular with the added incentives of getting people in NB fit and healthy. In reality you could even have people open a chapter of the Canadian Alpine club in NB and work out of there, thus drawing in even more potential users and their families.

Dean, let me know where you need assistance. I've got proposals on different things coming out my wazoo.

Cara

[dcentral]

We were lucky we had a group of kids who wanted to be there and wanted to climb.

But the exact same camp from the year before had one terrible kid who was able to get several others to follow him -- which ended up with one instructor needing stiches.

I guess my point is that with this age group, you have to be careful about what rules you set up.

[saF]

The age where kids are allowed to belay could also be dictated by the insurance company that you use. Some companies may say that for someone under X age belaying will increase your insurance by Y%. Just another thing to think about.

saF

[Pierre]

Just a few thoughts about rates...

Give students with valid student id a discount ( say 10% )

Might want to give kids under 12 a larger discount...

Maybe a slight lower rate during week days - hopefully this will generate traffice through out the week and not just weekends.

[Scooter]

2 for 1 nights at BG seemed to be pretty successful. there was always a large crowd.

[DeanO]

Thanks to everyone!!! I'm printing these pages off. I'll probably take some time and really read things through.

Cara, I'll give you a call when you home.

later

[PaulB]

as for lead climbing courses, you have to be very careful. There no official 'certification' program for climbers in Canada.

While there is no standard climbing certification, there is a well recognized certification program for gym instructors available through the ACMG. I'm not sure, but it may also help with insurance.

The only negative thing I would have to say about GZ is it's not as welcoming to all target customers ( kids, families ). It's more of gym for climbers, the routes can be very challenging with a minimal amount of beginner routes.

Deciding who the target customers are will depend a lot on the demographics of the area. In a city like Halifax which has a large number of hard core boulderers who want to keep strong all year long, a "climbers" gym makes sense. On the other hand, in a city like Moncton, which has a relatively small number of hard core climbers, kids and families are most likely where the money will be.

I recently met an ACMG rock guide who lives in Squamish and has his own private cliff. Even in what is arguably the climbing centre of Canada, a lot of his business comes from kids groups, birthday parties, etc.

In reality you could even have people open a chapter of the Canadian Alpine club in NB and work out of there, thus drawing in even more potential users and their families.

The ACC has recently recognized Competition Escalade Canada (CEC) as a non geographic Section. Ghislain is the Eastern Canadian rep, and may be able to provide some input on the benefits a gym might get from being involved with CEC.

DeanO, you should talk to Steve Adamson. He used to (maybe still does) run a gym in Saint John (The Hangout). I'm sure he could give you advice based on his experiences in a market very similar to Moncton.

[dcentral]

The Gym here just had to get a bunch of people ACMG certified becuase their insurance company wanted them too. However not everyone has to be ACMG certified when their are larger groups that need to be taught. But for the smaller groups its usually the ACMG people who run those.

Like Paul said it would definitely be useful to do some sampling of people in the city to see if they would actually support you, or at least it would help you too focus on what you want to develop.

[martha]

The ACC has recently recognized Competition Escalade Canada (CEC) as a non geographic Section. Ghislain is the Eastern Canadian rep, and may be able to provide some input on the benefits a gym might get from being involved with CEC.

DeanO, you should talk to Steve Adamson. He used to (maybe still does) run a gym in Saint John (The Hangout). I'm sure he could give you advice based on his experiences in a market very similar to Moncton.

Dean, Fred and I run the Fredericton Tour de Bloc for the CEC. we can help with info on this also. We can also put you in touch with Ghislain no troubles. he is known as 'Zig' on the forum and in life.

As well, the hangout has been closed for probably 5 years. Sorry Paul!!! Steve does look after the climbing wall at the NBCCSJ campus however and might be able to provide some info that us at UNB cannot. the more info the better!

Cara

[pwylie]

As some one who dealt with both the finances, expansion and logistics of the UNB wall for several years as well as business plans for two other small markets I hope I can add one or two things.

- UNB´s model should be taken with a grain of salt. There are zero operating costs paid (e.g. payment of lights, power, cleaning, security).

I realize that these costs are looking to be deferred in a shared,exisiting facility... however an upfront realistic estimate of these costs is essential to both your financial estimates and a successful/continuing partnership. This shared cost has sunk marginal business plans in the past (especially its eventual renegotiaton).

- Don´t sweat membership costs, you make the money off dropins. Making punchcards or something for a climb three get one free can be a better option in the first year or two, rather than membership papers, a computer (dear god), and who paid/who didnt conversations.

- Agree with Fred, flooring will sink you. UNB had funding for the student union for some of theirs and it was one of the biggest expenses in the expansion. Sure Cara will fill you in when y´all chat it up.

- Is the idea of volunteer labor all that apeasing to you? When writing the business plan for a wall many say yes and you may too... but does Moncton have sufficent ¨staff¨ for your needs and proposed schedule? (I dont know, rhetorical).

Many gyms count on volunteer/discount labour pools of belayers, instructors etc... you are also at the whim of ¨I can´t come in¨ and ¨we have a problem... not enough instructors for the party¨. Paid staff are easy, reliable and accountable. Volunteers are eager, plentiful and often unavailable.

----

Overall, think Moncton in a great market, has university students to make evenings work, tons of kids to make bread and butter (parties), and there is plenty of talent to

Email me if you want to chat more... Cara/Fred know how to get a hold of me still.

pat wylie
Revelstoke, BC / La Paz, Bolivia

[Nate]

I didn't read all of the posts so excuse if this was already said. I went to a gym in wisconsin that had a pretty good system for teaching people how to belay, they had different tags that they but on gear loops of the people they taught. One being for somebody that needs to be watched, one maybe for being able to belay top-rope, and one for lead belayers. This way you can see the ablilities of the people throughout the gym and know who you should pay attention to.
For belay age, I'd say different ages for drop-ins or from partys than avid kids that really want to climb(kids from camps or teams if you're going to have them) and not just throw chalk at each other.
Hope that helps,
Nate

[The Teth]

I think the number one issue when opening a climbing gym in a small market is rent. The gym in Sydney was doing fine while they were paying under $500 in rent each month. Unfortunately their landlord decided to do something else with the space and they could not find another location where the rent was low enough to be viable. In Halifax, Indoor Adrenalin, Rock Works, and Beyond Gravity where all located in the same building and the rent there was (I think) over $10,000 a month. Granted, Indoor Adrenalin failed partly because Walter was a con artist and screwed his partner for personal gain and then drove the business into bankruptcy to cover his tracks. And yes, Walter tried to do it again to Sean at Beyond Gravity, but BG survived that fiasco, so I suspect the gym eventually closed because there just was not enough profit margin in the good months to cover the bad month.

You want to keep the costs down. Ground Zero has been the most successful gym in Halifax and for good reason. Sean T leased warehouse space for his gym, while those other ones I mentioned were in high rent business space. You want to make sure that if the gym is full you are making a profit. If you need a full gym just to scrape by, then you are not going to survive. As long as you are near the city and you have parking, climbers will find you. If they are not finding you, then advertise. You do not need to be in a prim business area.

So to sum up: Find a low rent facility, and don’t partner up with a con man.

[zack]

there are many climbers that go to mta the little outdoor store that just opened down town sackville has talked the school about a bouldering wall. But i dont think there has been any talk since then.

(great little outdoor store down town sackville check it out)

[Fred]

a groupe tried to get a wall at MTA a couple years ago but the school wouldn't allow it

[Pierre]

a groupe tried to get a wall at MTA a couple years ago but the school wouldn't allow it

I'm sure they are not totally opposed to building a bouldering wall, it seems to be a lack of space to give up for a bouldering wall. Space on campus is tight!

If MTA ever gets enough money raised to redo their Athletic Center, they might put a climbing wall in. ( Their was talk about it )

There is a fair amount of climbers that go to MTA a few years back a friend of mine tried to get a climbing club going at MTA. There was lots of interest but with lack of facility, gear, funding and cars to travel to places to climb it basically failed. ( If I remember right about 100 ppl signed up ) . I'm sure most of those ppl were not veteran climbers but were people that wanted to try something new. They did try one massive indoor trip which fell through due to lack of funds and transportation.

Most of the ppl I climb with have a connection to MTA. A lot of buildering gets down around campus. Trueman sees alot of action!

Zack if your interested in joining us sometime e-mail me ( parsenau at mta dot ca ) ! We mostly go to the Halifax area to climb. Typically I try to make a trip once a month somewhere! I wish it was more but atleast it's something.

[Pierre]

there are many climbers that go to mta the little outdoor store that just opened down town sackville has talked the school about a bouldering wall. But i dont think there has been any talk since then.

http://www.mta.ca/facilities_master_plan/phase_one/athletic_centre/ath_presentation.pdf

I thinks it's on the radar but a long ways away!

[Fred]

from what I heard it was a liability issue. as bogus as that sounds that's the card they played. I could be mistaking though

[Pierre]

from what I heard it was a liability issue. as bogus as that sounds that's the card they played. I could be mistaking though

I could see that being a issue, University's seem to take the liability issue a little to far at times.

It's funny though they won't make a policy on buildeirng on Campus buildings but would stop a bouldering wall from being built because of liability... It's most likely a combination of things, like lack of space, money!

I'm sure if there was a facility here or close by a climbing club would definately work at MTA. The interest base is there! [/quote]

[DeanO]

The latest news on the climbing gym in Dieppe.

This is the reply I received from my contact. quote/unquote

Dean,

Thank you for your e-mail. I submitted the preliminary version of the report and the climbing wll was welle received. I will keep you posted on the following steps.

Have a great day!

So far everything is looking great. Things seem to be working to my favor.

Anyway, I'll let everyone know of any further developments

Dean

[Pierre]

Thanks for the update DeanO!

Hope it works out... and that all news related to a climb gym in Moncton/Dieppe is good news.

[thicks]

There were about 8 people at the UNB gym this weekend that were down from moncton to climb. That is a long drive. I mention it just as further examples of interest for the wall.

[Pierre]

There was weekend near the end of the summer or maybe it was Sept. that I was playing around on the Cent Park woodie and when I was finishing up a group of about 5 showed up to climb. While I was there several others stopped and asked about climbing.

I know if a gym shows up in Moncton/Dieppe I will definitley get membership

[Dom]

There were about 8 people at the UNB gym this weekend that were down from moncton to climb. That is a long drive. I mention it just as further examples of interest for the wall.

Yeah I was part of that group and we also came up tonight (Friday) to do some more climbing. Now that it is too cold to climb outside, Fredericton is our best option. It is a long drive but we are willing to do it. It is absolutely ridiculous to see that the city of greater Moncton with a population of 120 000 doesnt have a climbing gym. I'm 100% certain that a commercial wall would work . I also think it would be a must to advertise it in secondary and post-secondary education facilities as young people are usually up for a new-challenge. Furthermore, I think you should not only get harnesses to rent out but also shoes. Shoes are underestimated, but it really sucks to climb without them and not everyone has them. As for the gym itself I suggest getting a few couches in order to create a chill ambiance. It may sound stupid but I think any commerce needs a soul to attract customers and set up regulars. Couches would be perfect to take breaks and create a vibe within your walls. I know, I am asking for a lot but it's just suggestions
Well that was babbling but nevertheless I hope you get the point of my message-MONCTON NEEDS A CLIMBING GYM! IF IT DOESNT HAPPEN I'M MOVING....

[dcentral]

mmmm gym couches. Comfy plastic chairs are a good option too. They have some at the gym here. Their old cloth chairs were pretty gross by the time they thrw them out.

[martha]

We used to have a couch. it got filled with chalk and dust and mites and crap and it was disgusting. But comfy.

Obviously dean would have rental shoes at a gym. I think that goes without saying.


and what is this about it being too cold to climb outside? we climbed outside yesterday!!!!!!