bolts at main face

[Scooter]

from my understanding, the last person on the climb claimed that the bolt was not in far enough. somebody who had placed the bolts aparantly admitted the first was not in properly?? (not mentioning names) if they are good, then they are good. then we owe you an apology. im just going on what i was hearing.

[The Mitt]

When the guys put the bolt in I told them that it may not be in far enough until I inspected it. I have and it is fine, since then I have jumped on it several times and 2 people who also develop routes have said that it is good.

its the one in the first picture. Its really good just a bit of a pain when getting a biner in. I would really like to have those hangers put back.

Mitt

[The Mitt]

The bolt in question was the last one not the first one.

Mitt

[Scooter]

the hangers fell off the cliff as far as i know.

[Scooter]

.. just to clerify. i did not see the bolts. a climber with 3+ years of sport/trad experience said the bolt was out too far.

[The Mitt]

Well I invite him to plee his case, on why its was cool to get on the project, why it was ok to take the hangers, why the bolts are out to far, why it was an unsafe climb, and ultimately why it was ok to accuse me of being an unsafe developer. Totaly uncool. I took those first few posts as a personal attack and still do. At the very least that "experienced" climber could go back out and put the bolts back on. I know I am not investing one more minute on that climb.

Mitt

[Scooter]

ill give you my apologies, i really didn't mean to personally attack anyone. just wanted to find out what was going on.

[Scooter]

this is turning into msn aha
sorry about the attacks once again, the information was misgiven i guess

[The Mitt]

Thanks Scooter, shows alot of character. Wonder if the "experienced" climber is going to step up.

Mitt

[Fred]

I'm so smart. I called that one. A bunch of inexperienced climbers making a big deal out of nothing. Spinners are fair game.

Mitt,
your bolts look textbook. Nice work. I would feel safe climbing on your hardware any day based on the photos I've seen and the procedure you described. And yes I am an experienced bolter and know all the intricat details of them so I CAN SAY THAT.

Guys! get your act together, take a course, research, climb with experienced climbers like Mitt or myself or anyone else but you guys have just proven to us YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Furthermore, you tampered with someone else's project and taken their gear. I'd say put it back but good god THAT could be catastrophic.

Lesson learned. Don't shoot your mouth off if you don't know what you are talking about.

peace out.
Nice work Mitt on the new line. Looking forward to getting on it once the hangers are returned.

[martha]

.. just to clerify. i did not see the bolts. a climber with 3+ years of sport/trad experience said the bolt was out too far.

3+ years of climbing experience does not equal ANY bolting experience. I too want to hear this persons account of what he saw and why he feels it was unsafe. I'm as interested as Mitt for a different reason.

Of course the bolt is going to look like it is out too far without the hanger and nut on it.

Mitt, those bolts all look bomber. I'll come take whippers on them too. and I'm getting a little heavier these days.

Hangers often spin on new bolts. That is is just part of it. we usually take a wrench with us when we are visiting recent projects. It doesn't mean the route is unsafe. It is up to each climber to look out for themselves.

I'm with Fred..get those hangers back to their proper owner.

[Scooter]

they fell off the cliff?!

[Scooter]

people sending other peoples projects happen all the time. you just dont hear about it. sure some may have known there was a project in the area (maon face) but hows one to tell where it is? do you just not climb any sport routes that are put up? and i thoght it already got an FA?
just curious

[Fred]

Scooter,

you should stop while you aren't 6ft under dude. You just seem to keep digging yourself a bigger hole. I don't believe for one minute that you guys didn't know exactly which route you were on. Just like I didn't belive the studs PULLED out.

And if that's the case you not only need a lesson in climbing safety but more importantly climbing ethics.

cheers

[The Mitt]

Scooter wrote:
oh and conan, we took the bolts down. maybe if you would like to finish it, ill give them to you and you can put them in right.

What's with that? Do you guys have them or not. Oh and they sell them at MEC.

Mitt

[Fred]

I'd say you owe Mitt a beer too but I don't know if you are old enough.

[chameleon]

I didn't read all of your posts word for word, but can someone clarify whether or not one of the bolts actually pulled out a little bit?

The Mitt invited me out for a day of climbing about a month ago and we climbed the route in question - which is an excellent line by the way. The first couple of hangers were loose at the time, so I finger tightened them on the way by and didn't think too much about it. Sean K said he intended to go back with a wrench later and tighten them up. Seemed ok to me.

Later than night I was hanging out with Conan who was with The Mitt when the bolts were installed. I casually mentioned the spinning hangers and Conan implied that the lower bolts were barely tightened at all. If this is true (maybe, maybe not... I'm just discussing the possibility) then the bolts weren't installed correctly and theoretically could have pulled out a little if there was a sufficient outward force on the bolt(s).

Although Scooter and Nate have been tromped on a little for not sucking it up and "accepting the risks" related to rope climbing, I think their complaints are not unfounded. Route developers have a responsibility to all of us to install the bolts correctly and not leave a "half-assed" job. Although I did not install the bolts I am as responsible as anyone else for Nate/Scooter's mishap because I didn't follow through with the information Conan gave me regarding the uncertain quality of the route's lower bolts. I suspect that if I would've called The Mitt to enquire further (which I should've done) he would tell me that in fact the bolts were tightened up when Conan was eating his lunch or something like that - all good. But I didn't do anything - so please accept my apologies.

If the route was indeed not ready to be climbed (which I kinda doubt), then it probably would've been wise to keep a couple of the hangers off to prevent unsuspecting climbers from jumping on the route. And if I had serious doubts about the route, I should've got more information from the developers, fixed the problem (if any), and/or warned people.


Sean C.

[Fred]

The bolt did not pull out. The hanger fell off.

Nate never saw the bolt pull out from what I can understand. A NON experienced climber saw a hanger fall off and then saw a stud sticking out when he got to the bolt and thought the thing pulled out. When in fact a stud is supposed to be sticking out.

Yes hangers are supposed to be tight. All of them were tight except the bottom two. It happens. When it does, you do as you mentioned in your post, hand tighten and climb past it. Not pull out wild accusations on a person like Scooter did.

the jack ass that put them in

but that does not mean that people should be able to do a half ass job at placing bolts

if your not gonna finish what you started dont even bother. as far as im concerned this route isn't developed at all. keep up the good work on 'developing' routes.

that's just crazy talk

[Scooter]

how am i digging myself a hole? i wanna know how someone is supposed to tell, if a line is bolted, whose to say one cant climb on it? its a reasonable question. noone has any hangers. the hangers fell off the cliff. why would i want to steal a bunch of hangers that fell of a climb. i have no use for them. i was told that the bolts weren't in properly, so i posted wondering if there were any certification that was needed for someone to place bolts. if someone tells me that they were on a climb and a bolt was way too far out for safety,why shouldn't i beleive them? i gave mitt my apologies. no im not buying anyone hangers. they came off, and fell off the cliff. and no. and your right, im only 18 and even if i was 19 i wouldnt buy anyone a beer. it was a misunderstanding and i said i was sorry. now, back to what i was getting at. if i go to a crag and see a bolted climb im gonna get on it. if you want your project to be a project do what martha said and take the two first bolts out.

[Fred]

Scooter,

my advice to you is don't ever rope climb again I'm worried you'll forget to tie in. You don't even know what you said two minutes ago.

oh and conan, we took the bolts down. maybe if you would like to finish it, ill give them to you and you can put them in right.

Get your story straight man. Keyword story.

[martha]

Scooter,

make sure when you say bolts you mean 'bolts' and when you mean 'HANGERS' you say 'hangers'.

you seem to be saying bolts, but I think you are talking about hangers.

All the bolts are still in the rock, and none of them moved not even a little. like I said..your friend who saw the stud and said it was out too far likely saw it without the hanger/washer/nut on it so it would look like it was out to far, but based on the pictures that Mitt put up, everything is fine.

Inform your friend that told you they aren't safe that he is wrong.

[Fred]

if you want your project to be a project do what martha said and take the two first bolts out

you can't take a wedge bolt out. it's physicaly impossible. That's what we've been trying to tell you. You can leave the hangers off though. Or remove them like you guys did. I don't think it fell off. I think you guys unscrewed them to make a point.

[Zamboni]

I don't think I need to say anything on my part, Its all been pretty much said. Thanks Mitt.

But I will say this, good job kids, Peter is enjoying this.. But I'm wondering why mike hasn't said anything, he's usually all over this stuff for the same reason peter is.

Hey Mitt, Keith is heading out there this weekend for that other line you showed us. I'm not going to be around this weekend, but I would like to get out the 10th / 11th, are you interested? Are the stoners going to be around then too?

Conan.

P.S. the line in Question is Called Deep Throat.

[Fred]

will the line next to it be called "Gag Reflex"?

[Nate]

Is there a better way to insure that hanger stay tight than bringing along a wrench every time?. Would applying a bit of glue or rubber cement on the nut before tightening it help? I'm trying to be purely constructive here...

Also I do owe you an apologe Mitt, when I asked about the route I was informed it was a new 5.8 line. In my mind I thought this meant like, newly equiped, already climbed and open to anybody else to climb and with this mind set having hangers fall off is very disturbing. I'm sure you can understand. If you're worried about your line being climbed it still isn't because as I said before, I just really wanted to get out of there so I pulled on bolts and all sorts of things.

The hangers aren't in my hands but since I'm reponsible for the idea of climbing your line I'll head down to MEC the first chance I get and you can pick the hangers up at Beyond Gravity, or I can bike over to your house and give them to you there and we can talk about the route etc then.

Nate

P.S. .....am I this 3 years of experience blah blah blah guy...???

[Fred]

There isn't really a way to make sure they don't come off. When you tighten the bolts the stud pulls out of the hole and forces a soft metal to wedge up a cone on the sidewalls of the bolt hole. Thus it's impossible to pull a stud out. It's kinda like the cam principle. The more you pull the more it cams. The only way is to break it to pull it out. So you have to be carefull when you tighten them because if you tighten too much you can sometimes break the bolt right off. They recommend snug tightening not wrenching. It's possible the hanger sat on a small crystal and the wrench allowed for proper tightening (at the time). Once a leader falls the hanger might break the crystal and have a little more play. Hence why somtimes new bolts can spin and require revisiting to tighten them up. I would just hand tighten the bolt when I come up to it. I doubt it will fall off. But yes it could happen I guess. If the nut doesn't fall off, the stud can't come out so the bolt will hold a fall even if the hanger is spinning. You see it alot at sport crags. Especially on sandstone where the rock behind the hanger has worn out from repetitive falls.

If you ever have any questions Nate on how to place bolts or how they work or what to do when a bolt spins feel free to give me a call and I will gladly help you or show you personaly in NS or NB. We have a couple projects near Digby too. 506-472-1167

[The Mitt]

Thanks Nate, thats a fair question and one I have asked around about as well. Putting a substance (its called locktite) on the bolt can be done however there are drawbacks to it. After very long periods of time it may break down the metal sooner than with no chemical. It does not last very long in the elements, and it means the nut will not come off so if for some reason you need to remove the bolt now it becomes 10 times harder to remove. And mainly its a real pain to use, hanging from ropes with a drill and all that equipment and then dealing with a substance like super glue not fun. one spill on your kit and you have to replace everything.

I have thought of trying it, but I can't find a reference that says its ok. So until I do, I don't think it would be right to experiment with it.

Hope that answers your question.

Mitt

[Fred]

I would like to get out the 10th / 11th, are you interested? Are the stoners going to be around then too?

That's Cape Clear exploration and development weekend.

[Scooter]

i think its clear that i meant 'hangers'. sorry for my wrongful wording. you guys really crack down on your english. i can guarantee that i didnt take any bolts down, nor did anyone else. 1 hanger fell off the cliff, and the other i know nothing about. i know i told conan that he could put the bolts in himself to make a point that i knew he wouldn't. not to attack him, hes my friend. fred, thanks for the comment. you sure do like to get your nose into every topic on here don't ya. and of course, you know everything. maybe we should call you god?

[Scooter]

no, nate, obviouslly not