bolts at main face

[Nate]

Hey,
I was out to Main Face yesterday climbing Sleeper and spotted a nice sport climb on the belay ledge that looked nice and easy and since I was there with some new climbers I figured It'd be a nice first climb for them and that we'd head back later to climb it. So we rapped down and on lead the first hanger fell out and half the bolt slid out and later on the second hanger fell off!
With bolting like this I'm thinking there should be some sort of standard for bolting in Nova Scotia. If the rap anchor was set like the first two bolts most likely I'd be dead right now with at least one of my friends. I had no reason to think that there was going to be something wrong before I started climbing. Should there be some sort of test or something for bolting...? Something to think about...
Nate

[MacLeod]

Ya for the first time being outside on a rope...having bolts poppin out on us wasnt too pleasent...thank god after sending that mudpuddle in the rain I jumped on sleeper and had some fun in the sun on that.
All im gettin at is, If nate decided to fall on his lead up there myself and him would probly still be layin at the bottom of main face...all I'm sayin is this was a discouraging way to start outside sport climbing. I think some type of test wouldnt be such a bad idea.

-MacLeod

[martha]

It is unfortunate, but there is no test. I've clipped many mankey bolts. Man, climbing in Red Rocks, the hangers spin and the studs wiggle. It is unfortunate.

however, NS is small, and climbing is fairly new. Properly placed stainless steel bolts should last for 15 years!!

What is most important is that people know how to put them in. It isn't rocket science, but you need to know what you are doing for sure.

Nate, I know that you and Ben are interested in learning to bolt. Just come up to Fredericton some time when fred and I are working on new projects, (we've got several on the go so just pick a weekend) and we'll show you the ins and outs of it.

Cara

[Scooter]

sport climbing is supposed to be one of the safest ways to climb on rope. these bolts were clearly less than a year old. they were good as new. Im guessing that CNS had to rent out the drill to place these bolts because im sure that there are very few, if any, climbers out there with their own tools for bolting. It wouldn't be a bad idea for CNS to make sure people are capable of using these tools and are able to safely place bolts. If nate had of slipped off of this climb those bolts would have definately ripped and nate could have been severly injured or dead. to me this is a serisous issue. some newbie shouldnt be able to rent tools and start blasting bolts everywhere if they dont know what they are doing. what if the person who bolted this line has bolted before? are they safe? are they going to pull out with a little bit of rope drag like this incident? scary.

[Fred]

not to be an ass or anything but you guys aren't climbing at an amusment park. Bolts are historycaly used as protection for the first ascent team. Whoever uses them after that uses them at their own risk. There are many factors such as repetitive whipers or rock fall that can damage a bolt. Bolts should all be treated as suspect and backed up with your own protection. Sport climbing is not 'safe' as you guys call it. Sport climbing is climbing and all climbing is inherently dangerous. If you think you are sport climbing because of the safety of bolts you have the wrong approach and... personaly, that scares me.

In my opinion, not knowing how to properly inspect bolts or not knowing their functioning is as dangerous as not knowing how to place trad gear. You should have been able to check the bolt before climbing past it and take action by backing off the route. Either downclimb to your last piece, traverse to a natural gear placement, tighten the existing bolt temporarily to get back down to the last good bolt. You must be prepared for anything and not rely on the safety of bolts. Many routes often have chopped bolts or it said it was sport but turns out there is a 40ft runout. What do you do then?

Please don't take this personaly. I'm just trying to give you a reality check about the dangers of sport climbing.

cheers!

[tracstarr]

just a quick note before i head to bed about this.... the line was /still is a PROJECT. it was stated so on this site. true not everyone may know this, but i'm sure some of that group knew. also, as a project, i was there when it was bolted, it was never 'finished' as it started to rain, the bolts were never tightened and that's why they pulled out. anyway, gotta run.... remember, climbing is CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK! no matter what.

[martha]

just a quick note before i head to bed about this.... the line was /still is a PROJECT. it was stated so on this site. true not everyone may know this, but i'm sure some of that group knew. also, as a project, i was there when it was bolted, it was never 'finished' as it started to rain, the bolts were never tightened and that's why they pulled out. anyway, gotta run.... remember, climbing is CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK! no matter what.

generally projects go like this... if the bolts are in (hammered in) and you don't want anyone leading it, leave the bottom 2 hangers off all together OR put them on, tighten them properly, and tie orange flagging tape on the bottom hanger.

DO NOT ever put them on and not tighten them, raining or not as that is just bad practice and looking for what happened yesterday to happen.

We've bolted in the rain before. you won't melt. Finish your job properly. Either leave the rest of the drilling for another day and complete the bolts/hangers, or leave empty holes for next time, just be sure to bring a straw to blow them out really well.

On another note.. If a bolt has been hammered into the rock...it CAN'T pull out as it is an expansion bolt, hanger on or not. The second you try to pull it out, it grabs, so unless your holes are way to big, the studs should not have pulled out.

Trust me, you won't lose the holes on the climb if you don't put the bolts in them. you can spot them a mile away. So if you don't have time to finish the job properly, don't leave it in a way that people can get hurt as not everyone reads this site or would know that was a project.

[The Mitt]

The Bolts were put in about 1 month ago maybe more. They were put in by a friend of mine under my instruction. They were placed properly, and secure. Often when first placed many hangers tend to loosen up and spin. I have found with the new bolts sold by MEC there is a rubber washer that tends to rot away very quickly. This is not uncommon. When myself and the person who did the first ascent saw that they were spinning I thought I would come back later and tighten them. The climb had only seen one ascent and had not been published because it still needs work (ie tightening of bolts). I have placed many bolts before and watched these being placed they were placed correctly. The route was and still is a "project" until it gets published as such. I am sure some of you knew this and had no thoughts towards the developers.

After noticing that the first bolt was loose why would you continue? If I saw the first bolt to be as bad as you stated I would not continue. incidentally I have fallen on that first bolt several times even as a spinner. Also get one thing straight, people who put these climbs up do a hell of allot of work to make this happen. Your not in a gym anymore, when you get on that rock there is no guarantee of safety, you will encounter spinners, old bolts, bad bolts, its part of climbing. Hell I would not consider any of the bolts at Eagles nest to be safe. Not even for rappel.

Man whats with this scene, first people freek out because NS does not have enough sport climbs and a huge discussion ensues about how we should bolt everything. Then myself and a few others work our asses off on putting up a new route, don't get it finished and yet we still get S_H_I_T upon for doing that. There are very few people here in Halifax still developing routes, I was one of them. Most of the routes I have developed I have not even gotten the first ascent of and have given it to others. I am done!!!! Many of you expect people to do all the work for you. My suggestion spend some time developing routes yourself see how much work goes into it.

Man I am seriously considering to stop climbing all together.

Mitt

[martha]

Hey Mitt,

We've stopped using the rubber washer for that very reason.

Good work on getting the route up. I wasn't ragging on you, hope you understand, but was just putting my 2 cents out there on bolting for those who didn't seem to know about the practice. If you were there, I'm sure the bolts are just fine.

I'll repeat what the others said.. "climbing is inherently dangerous"

cheers!!

[Zamboni]

Hey Nate, If your upset with the condition of the route, I'd suggest adding a wrench to your rack. I've climbed at sorrows end at times and had to tighten up Bolts with my fingers b4 clipping. Its part of the territory, get use to it.

My question to you is, did you tighten the bolts, or do you think it’s not your responsibility?

CB.

[Scooter]

ok, for one the bolt did not pop out until nate was at the last clip, so he wasnt able to tell that the jack ass that put them in did not finish what he started. also i know that climbing has its risks but that does not mean that people should be able to do a half ass job at placing bolts either. yes, we probably should have checked the bolts before climbing, thats true. but if the person who bolts a sport climb knows for a fact that they are not in properly or safe he should take the bolts out all together. is that too much to ask? and as for you 'mitt', if you are so experienced and worked your ass off as much as you say you did why didnt you stay the extra couple minutes to properly secure them? a person of your experience and intelligence should have realized that this is not a very safe thing to do. and as far as developing routes go... if your not gonna finish what you started dont even bother. as far as im concerned this route isn't developed at all. keep up the good work on 'developing' routes. i dont mean to rag on you man but to sit there and just say 'so what' to an issue like this really bothers me. all i ask is that if people are bolting, dont leave them half in. take them out, come back some other time and finish it. and about he whole 'amusment park'. all of us there are aware that bolts rust, get old and wear down. as a matter in fact on the trip Eagles Nests bolts came up and we all said we would never trust ourselves on them. but these were placed a little over a month ago.

[Scooter]

oh and conan, we took the bolts down. maybe if you would like to finish it, ill give them to you and you can put them in right.

[ben smith]

I think that scott was refering to sport climbing as being safe in a comparison to traditional climbing. I think that we (Nate and I ) both knew that there was a "project" recently bolted at mainface and weren't out for any first ascent glory. Nate just wanted to get an easy lead in before it started raining and the sleeper ledge was close to camp. We wouldn't have said anything about climbing it except that the bolts were in such bad shape. I have seen flowers bolts before but nothing that would pull out of the rock under the weight of a rope-I dont mean a spinner or your general eagles nest mank, this was a shiny new bolt that pulled halfway out of the rock after a rope was dropped and its weight pulled on it.

I respect the hell out of anyone developing routes any where, especially sport routes, and hope to start soon depending on how hard school is in the fall and if I can get up to fredricton to learn to bolt. BUT as a developer I think that it is a responsibillity not to leave a half-assed job behind rain or no. If you have to leave half way through take your first few bolts like cara said especially if its your Project and you want its FA.

I think the main concern behind the posts was not to blame any one but more to notify people that the climb is in rough shape and to open some discussion on how much responsibilty lies with the first ascent party to equip a safe climb especially in the easier grades. I'm hoping that this won't return the message board to the flowers hole it was last winter with people ripping each other up for nothing especially with how mild the last months have been- Dover trips and other good topics.

-Ben

[martha]

No offence Scooter.... but go climbing in J-tree, red rocks, North Conway or any place where the bolts have been around a while and get used way more than here in Atlantic Canada. I've been on routes that look great from the ground, the guide book says they have 'x' number of bolts, and you get 70ft off the deck and see that the route is missing some hangers, or that the stems are bent, or hey..worse yet..that the bolts and hangers are HOME MADE.

It happens. if it bothers you that much, then i'd say stick to bouldering.

[Fred]

1) if you guys were aware this route may still be a project and disregarded that... totaly NOT cool

2) If the bolt was a 10mm FIXE expansion bolt (not a Petzel removable wedge sleeve or equivalent) you obviously don't know how a bolt works if you claim the bolt ripped out. I have a hard time believing that but I guess anything is possible. I can see the hanger falling off but even then I highly doubt that unless it was hanging by a thread when you got to it at which point you should NOT have climbed past it without tightening it if you knew what to look for. The only way to get that stud out is to break it off or use a 5 ton jack and even then the stud will break before it pulls out. What are the real facts boys?

3) to come onto this public climbers forum and accuse route developers of being unsafe and potentialy causing you harm (when you are at fault) is a big accusation in my opinion. I would be seriously pissed in their place. On the rock you are responsible for your own self. If that means bolts fall out... then they fall out. The route developer placed them there for his free ascent and he deemed them safe at the time or will use them when he has to. You are welcome to used fixed protection at your own risk. If you guys knew how to trad lead you'd understand by comparing to manky pitons. You see them, you know their bad, but you clip em anyways and move on then find better protection. If you realy don't trust it, you back off.

Your story, although possible, sounds a bit blown out of proportion to catch attention. I'm speculating but I'd guess you came accross a couple spinners and are trying to alarm the public. If a 10mm FIXE wedge bolt was IN FACT pulled out of a 10mm bolt hole I'd like to know about it because we have to SERIOUSLY contact the manufacturer. Documented proof is in order for what you guys SAY you witnessed.

sorry if I'm peeing on someone else's turf but I just had to drop my input.

cheers
climb safe

[martha]

oh and conan, we took the bolts down. maybe if you would like to finish it, ill give them to you and you can put them in right.

I don't understand how the bolts pulled out of the rock all together...Expansion bolts don't do this..with or without a hanger on them....

[martha]

oh and conan, we took the bolts down. maybe if you would like to finish it, ill give them to you and you can put them in right.

AND...if these bolts were in the rock..and are now out of the rock...don't use them again. they are already wrecked.

Taking someones bolts is nasty. like taking someones nut they left behind cause they didnt' have their nut tool. those things cost money. Fred and I have spent over $1000 on route development in NB and NS and we'd be Pissed if anyone took our stuff. wtf.

Either A. like fred is saying, the story is blown out of proportion or B. the hole was too big for the bolt or C. the bolts were faulty.

I think that C. is very very unlikely.

[Scooter]

i think my point was missed. all im saying is if your going to bolt something, dont leave it halfway done and don't leave bolts up if they are not tightended properly. all of a sudden because i have an opinion i should stick to bouldering? no! i love sport climbing and understand that bolts get old and rust and some people make thier own. my point is simply finish it if your gonna start it. i spent 5 days at main face this week and developed a passion for trad climbing. being so high and relying on your own gear was awesome. it was so exciting. i knew that gear could pop out. i dont mind risks or being scared. not the point i was trying to make.

[johnthegreat]

Ok im not trying to argue or take sides but gess guys and gals you have all climbed with Nate hes not going to blown things out of porportion. If he say and and pulled bolts out it abviously wasn't a safe route to keep up. I think we can all learn from this nothing serious happened (and for that we are REALLY lucky) but I mean nate is super climber and he has a right to be upset. Anyway I hope you guys don't take offence just my two cents worth.
John

[dpg]

Ya, NO way an expansion bolt could pull out if it was installed properly.
And hammering in a bolt takes a couple seconds so rain could not be an issue.
Now a hanger spinning or nut/hanger spinning off... thats another issue, and if you dont see threads passing through the nut then dont use the bolt untill its fixed.
yip
B

[tracstarr]

ok. lets get this straight. All the bolts were hammered in and done under the supervision of the Mitt. Trying to help in some development in the area he offered to show us how to bolt, and i'm very grateful for that. I'm 100 % confident in his ability and judgement that what was done was done right. They were expansion bolts and as such should not have pulled out if the hanger was tight or not. if you've got the bolts, lets see them. lets find out what did go wrong. obviously something. Also, we didn't leave the climb in some state of concern when we decided to leave. All bolts were hammered in and hangers hung. We didn't go back over the entire route to re-tighten the bolts, that's all. Like others have said, bolts easily loosen on their own and always need to be checked if they are tight. I don't think we left that route in any unsafe state as we saw it at the time.

[Andrew]

I'm not an expert or even a novice with regards to bolting routes, etc... but I do know that there are 10mm bolts and 3/8" bolts and 10mm bits and 3/8" bits. I know that these sizes are similar but just slightly different. Should someone drill a hole with one and put a bolt of the other in there, it most likely won't make a proper bond and could easily come out like people were mentioning. Maybe the bolts weren't hammered in enough and torqued on enough. Who knows. As I said, I'm not an expert.

On MEC.ca's website, they give instructions right on the bolt's product brief about how to bolt. Plain and clear.



**QUOTE**

We recommend these stronger bolts for anchors, as they meet the CE required strength for fixed rock protection. They are stainless steel and come with a washer, rubber seal and nut. Use them with the 3/8in. / 10mm compatible bolt hangers. This is an expansion bolt design: you drill the hole, hammer in the stud, and draw it out with a wrench, thereby tightening the collar. Use a metric 10mm drill bit only, not a 3/8in. North American standard drill bit, as the measurements are not precisely the same.

**QUOTE**

Is it possible that this is what happened?

That's my 2cents.
Please don't flame me.
[/b]

[MacLeod]

K,ppl keep sayin that there's no way the bolt could have came out if was installed properly...well it did so does that mean that were at fault for being concerned about them comin off?...Another thing that keeps poppin up in this is that we werent aware of the dangers of climbin,well when i was like 150 feet in the air i'll tell ya i had some fear in my eyes. Also were not cryin about some hangers spinning the damn thing popped off and came down when nate threw the rope back down...now again im gonna say if the bolts cant come off if theyre placed properly,and they did come out...what does that tell u. 'Mitt' get as ma as u want maybe u were lazy that day but those bolts werent on right.

-MacLeod.

[Nate]

Here's my story from when I first saw the route: Me and a friend were climbing Sleeper, a 2 pitch 5.7 trad line. I got up to the first belay ledge, set up my anchor and belayed as my friend seconded. When he got up we spotted a nice line of blots of to the left a couple metres. I knew a lot of people said they really wanted to bolt some new easy sport lines around the province and I figured this was one of those lines. I looked pretty easy and I wanted to climb it as the second pitch but, as my friend pointed out to me, a lot of climbs look easy from the bottom and it'd be better just to stick to our guns and do the second pitch of Sleeper and come back later and try it with the other guys. From my point of view the bolts looked fine and word doesn't always get around about new routes(mind you I hadn't seen word on this site about it but apparently there is)
So we meet up with everybody else and decided to climb it after we ate.
After eating we headed over to the top of Sleeper and rapped down on to the ledge. Once we got down the sky opened up and it start raining on us. I figured that instead of rapping down the other pitch of Sleeper and arriving at camp in the dark the safest was out of there was for someone to lead it and belay everyone else out of there. So I lead it(this wasn't at all and ascent of your route Sean, I french freed and stuff all over the place, I was really just trying to get everyone the hell out of there) and when I got to the rap bolts and set up my anchor they told me that rope drag had popped the first hanger off and apparently(I saw none of this from where I was) the bolt slid out a bit. NO BOLTS EVERY LEFT THE WALL.
to be continued.....(I have to go eat and stuff please don't bite me ear of yet)

[MacLeod]

When the last person climbed up the second hanger fell off too. And that was how it went.
When I went to work the next day there was a bunch of people meeting to go to dover. I was talking to Keith and he said that the last bolt was unsafe because the hole wasn't deep enough.

My point: The route is unsafe

I'm really not trying to flame ANYBODY, I really just don't want this to ever happen again. I don't know....is there a way to insure that nuts aren't going to unscrew...glue??

Nate

[MacLeod]

I'm on macload's account at the gym...this isn't scott it's Nate

[MacLeod]

I mean MacLeod's...

[The Mitt]

Ok this is going to be long as I just got back from main face and the route in question. I gave up my day because I thought there may have been some sort of failure of the bolt maybe SCC. As I thought there was no failure. So here are the facts.

Equipment used:

1.Bosch eliminator
2. 10mm Drill bit.
3. 10mm bolts and Fixe anchors bought from MEC.

How the bolts were placed:
1. area where the bolts where to be put in cleaned by brush and flattened out with hammer.
2. Hole drilled perpendicular to rock at a depth equaling about 4/5 of the bolts overall length. The last bolt hole was not drilled in as far as I like but still just as safe. Its about 2/3 rather than 4/5. mainly just causing a pain in the ass for clipping as the bolt sticks out to far.
3. Hole dust blowen out.
4. Nut extended to end of bolt as not to mushroom the end when tapping in with hammer.
5. tapped in at a the same angle as the hole.
6. nut screwed in by hand then tightened by wrench (obviously for the first two not enough)

What I found when I went out there:
1. The anchors and last 4 bolts with hanger were perfect. here are links to pics of them.
http://www.themostwebhost.com/picts/Mainface_bolt%20002.jpg
http://www.themostwebhost.com/picts/Mainface_bolt%20003.jpg
http://www.themostwebhost.com/picts/Mainface_bolt%20004.jpg
http://www.themostwebhost.com/picts/Mainface_bolt%20005.jpg

2. The First two bolts are still there and in perfect shape waiting for hangers as the hangers that I bought and had installed are gone. There is no way any of them came out at all. I took pics of them as I saw them. I then put temporary hangers on the bolts and proceeded to take 3 fall factor 1 falls on each of them using a 1 meter piece of rope, backed up for safety of course. Here are the pictures.
http://www.themostwebhost.com/picts/Mainface_bolt%20007.jpg
http://www.themostwebhost.com/picts/Mainface_bolt%20008.jpg
As you can see they are sticking out of the rock at a good distance, not too much not to little.


So what comes out of this.
1. We put a project up. Many people knew about it. Hmm know about a new project, see a new line with shiny new bolts, maybe thats the project.
2. The group decided to climb on it anyway.
3. The first 2 nuts should have been tightened down more, on that account I agree. However at no time did that make the climb dangerous.
4. The person who climbed must not have checked to see if the nuts were secure when clipping them if they were so bad as to have fallen off when he got to the top. This makes for a dangerous climber not a dangerous climb. (rule number one always check your gear) even a hand tightened nut will hold a fall as it is not the nut that holds the fall its the bolt.
5. It was physically impossible for those bolts to have moved. I don't buy it and after going out and jumping on them you can't convince me that it happened.
6. The hangers that I bought and had installed are now missing and I assume are with the complaining group.
7. Anyone who has been lead climbing for any length of time encounters loose nuts on bolts, its part of climbing. All safe climbers I know clip a bolt take a quick look at it to make sure its secure and not spinning off, this is also part of climbing.

Now I would hope to assume that the person who has the hangers, washers, and nuts will be returning them to their proper place. If not I will assume that with time the climbs that I have either put up or helped put up will develop spinners and people will complain so I should just go out and collect all of the hangers I have installed or help install. I will start collecting my hangers on Saturday.

Mitt

[The Mitt]

Also if you look at the last 2 pictures, the rubber is still jammed between the rock and bolt insuch a way that if it pulled out the rubber would have come with it.

Mitt

PS. Macleod you have not begun to see me get mad, unless those hangers get put back.

Why should I be mad?
1. Someone was on what was obviously a project with no regard for the developers.
2. I was accused of being an unsafe developer.
3. My work was lied about (bolt pulling yeah right, makes it sound so much more dramatic)
4. I feel concerned about others climbing on the route so I give up most of today to inspect the route, for what I find out to be no F@#$ing reason at all, it was and is perfectly safe.

I think I am owed a F$%^ing apology here.

Mitt

[peter]

Hey, what's a "bolt:?

Glad no one was hurt.

Nice to see the forum liven up. I had taken to reading the Chronicle-Herald online, instead.

Peeeetooooor