Pussin on the sit starts...

[seanT]

ok here is a topic that may bring the forum back to life... people pussin out on sit starts of certain problems...ie...stacking pads up so that you dont actually have to do the sit start..pull your sorry ass off the ground but rather just pull on...Stars attacks is prime example doing it with one pad is super hard doing it with 3 or more stacked up makes the start wayyy easy...what do people think? is the send valid if you pussed out on the sit start?not pointing any fingers here at anyone just random climber spew to bring some life to the board?

[Rowan]

Yeah but when the hardest move on a problem is just pulling yourself offa the dirt in some contrived, weirdass sit start, that's just frigging bogus. Plus it's undignified and unmanly.
Empirically speaking, the hardest move on a problem should be three moves before an uncertain and sketchy topout. This is what has made problems like Midnight Lightning, The Story of Two Worlds and Wheel of Life such classics.

[stoneseeker]

FUDGE YeAH

The world is going to shite these days, kids aren't starting laying down like we used to!! We used to start UNDER GROUND on some sit starts! We called those "Hole Starts".

You know peoples outside habits by watching them indoors too! I set a pile of sitstart problems a while back at GZ and labeled them "SDS" and watched peeps "crouching" the start or stacking pads mile high... mind you some of them were a little too high without at least 1 pad, but lotsa people just "pretended" to sit start.

A prime example of this outside is that hard-@$$ freakin' V4 at Corn and Bung, "Cornholio". Not hard if you stack pads, ballz hard sit if you use only one.

I agree there are some pretty lame sit starts sometimes that risk ruining an otherwise flow-y problem, but then you climb for you, you climb the line without the sit and enjoy it. But that rarely happens. People want to claim the original line, claim it as "completed" so they kind of "fake" the start. They look for a way around pulling hard off the ground and either stack pads, dig a heel in the ground (seriously!) , or start crouching. The honorable thing to do in a unaesthetic SDS situation (we'll call that a U.S.D.S.S from now on) would be not to try to fudge it, but rather proudly start from where you feel the obvious line begins and walk away without any kind of "official" send.

Hardest SDS I have found recently in NS is the ridiculous "Pass the Vacuum" at TB woods. Smizz, how many pads are under your @$$ in that video?? lol Although your toe hook beta around the corner is rather genius. Classic smizzin' I say.

[Quinn]

I've always been a purist when it comes to SDS. I didn't write the topos on mobeta, but the ethic on SDS comes through the writing I think. A few choice excerpts:

Cornholio V4: Stack enough pads and you can avoid the crux altogether...
Red Bull V4: No pad stacking, just try harder!
Imogen V7: Stacking pads is only cheating yourself.

Should weak sauce crouch starts, or whack ass hop starts (like everybody does on Blood Flame or Pushed) become fashionable in the future, we can modify the wording at any time. Until then... If you ain't crankin', Yer wankin!

For the record, that is one pad underneath Smizz on pass the vacuum. It's my custom Behemoth. It's a monster, so I can see how you were confused. Considering the committing nature of that climb, I feel it's use was justified.

[stoneseeker]

Quinn I agree with your position on it. I like the ethic that generally comes through in the written topos on Mobeta, I feel it! Those examples I was thinking of myself.
There are, however, a few scenarios in some videos though that seem to contradict that ethic at times... it could be just a mistaken appearance (like Pass the Vacuum, only 1 pad, just looked like more) but other times, I question the "purity" of the send...

Here are some examples: (*DISCLAIMER* Don't take these examples as attacks on your sends. You guys are climbing freekin' strong and having the balls to film it, which I respect... this is simply my observations for the sake of conversation!)

-"Enterprise" V7 Nice Send! That things start holds are so SH!ttY, half the time most of us couldn't get our feet off the ground. My gripe: The hardest move is starting matched (I thought that was the original beta?) on the crappy slopers where your left hand is, and then firing your momentum and right hand to catch that slimper crystal, then the rest is just a touch techy but considerably easier. I was surprised to see that the beta now included right hand starting on a low crimper instead of matched on the badness which puts the hold your firing for MUCH closer to you, and gives you more to fire with. Was this the original beta just poorly communicated in the original xerox woods guide? Could be we were just trying it a harder way accidentally.

-"Pushed" or "Hard Pushed" V10 OK ok. I understand a mono crimp is badass, but I feel (unless I am mistaken about Ben's right hand start hold) that the original beta is possibly harder. Did Ben send it the original way too? Hop starts can be a very coordination intensive move, requiring precision and skill. I have never been back to work Pushed in a while, but the time I tried it with Adam, I was able to make the hop start to the gaston after a half hour or so. I thought it was pretty dope, stiff as hell, and understood why Nick did it that way.
Does Ben start with his hand on the right arete, left hand on mono? Static or not, if that is the case, then he is starting with his hand already on the second move, which for me is the crux. I can get the first move, but was unable to stick the arete (second move) with my right. Original starts on crimps. See what I'm saying? He eliminated the hardest move in the original and replaced it with a stiff static move but with arete already in. BUT, since you named it something entirely different and labeled it a variation, you can do whatever you want and it still is a dope line thats yours to climb as you will. I just think it's unnecessary to slander a hop start just cause you can't do it, or think that static is always somehow superior. I personally love hop starts if the problem lends itself nicely to one. The Font, I'm told has hundreds of them. So does Joshua Tree.

-"A dope trailer is no place for a kitty (direct)" V8 This one is Ben's FA, so we got no grounds for complaining, but Ryan, Mike, Mark, Paul and myself went out there one time a while back and tried the line for a while before we had seen the video. Mike ended up sending, but started about 2-3 moves (at least) lower than Ben does, on obvious crimps and terrible feet. We discovered the video after that night and were shocked that Ben was skipping all the hardest moves at the techy start. To clarify, Ben's right hand starts on the sidepull corner that we were firing to on our 3rd move (crux for sure). I know he's tall but he must have had some serious stackage of pads to reach so high off the ground for that first move. We had at least 2 pads down and the idea of starting that high never even occurred to us!

alright that's all the slander and discussion I got for now. We won't bring top-outs into this discussion! lol

Ultimately, climbing is a super contrived sport (if you call it a sport) so it's not like any one way can be defined as "right". But I still think it's a healthy discussion to have once in a while! Does a developer have final say? Is the accepted practices that encompass climbing changing constantly? Man, we could write a really boring essay on this stuff!

[Quinn]

Question all you like - I love this stuff. This is the whole point behind a free online guidebook - it can be updated, revised, and improved. New beta is discovered, holds break, and grades need revision. Ultimately, climbing is a personal adventure. You wanna start Captain Hook 3 moves in? That's cool. You wanna participate in the shared experience and do the named problem with a suggested difficult of V5, that's cool too - start sitting on the holds specified by the first ascentionist. Doesn't matter to anyone but yourself. The guidebook captures that shared experience to pass it along for others to enjoy at their discretion. I'd never tell you where to start a climb - that's up to you.

Enterprise: The wording from the original guidebook is as follows: On the right face of the biggest boulder, start with slopers above head height and climb straight up. Slopers was plural. Nobody has done it in a decade, so that was our interpretation. If you liked making it harder starting matched that's cool. If that's the way the FA went down, I'd be happy to update the description and label the video as a variation. At the moment, it's ambiguous. I thought it was a turd anyway you start it, so I'm certainly not going back there to film a new video, but I'd be happy to update the description.

Pushed: Ben's hand IS on the original start hold, the video is just a bad angle. bI was there with him when he did it and tried his beta. If you watch closely, after the first move, he does a small bump out to the arete from the undercling. Ben has done pushed before, both variations. He eats this climb for breakfast and runs laps on it like it's a warm up. He climbed it like 4 times in a row for the video. The mono variation is definitely harder, but feel free to decide for yourself. Debating his beta is sort of pointless, cause this climb is so far beneath his ability. He'd do it again to prove it if he cared - but I'm sure he doesn't.

A dope trailer: Sweet man! I'm glad you guys checking out Shaw cove. Did anyone do the Bible Pimp, or Pareidolia? I don't remember the holds on a Bible Pimp very well. Did you start low enough to sit to credit you with the SDS? If you care to, snag a video and I'll uploaded as A Bible Pimp Extension. For the record, we only had two pads that night, but we are quite tall and the start was awkward as hell in a pure smizzle fashion - i.e. the result of Smizzing, rather than stacking. Plus it was a stand start FA - so really it was at Smizzle's discretion.

[stoneseeker]

I think your vision of mobeta is becoming clearer to me now: a shared resource constantly evolving. I get the impression that climbing in general is moving more in that direction (personal expression, less pragmatic) as more variables/styles etc. are introduced to the mix and as culture changes of course. Gym climbers changed the face of climbing forever in the 80's-90's, and now post-modernism is changing the face of climbing too!
I get it though. I think it promotes a unique opportunity for a community as a whole to have a community guide book unlike the old days of books with one author.

So here's my thoughts on those specific climbs "post-Quinnfo":

Enterprise: That is ambiguous. We just interpreted the start differently. Zig would probably be able to straighten us out, but your right it really doesn't matter enough to bother him about it. I kinda agree it has turd all over it, but the heinous slopers do intrigue.

Pushed: Good to hear! I retract any criticism for that one as it was mostly based on the false assumption he was starting on the arete... Thanks for clarifying. Though I still think Sagar's hop start in to gaston is one badass cool move. Cool to hear Ben's got that thing so dialed.

A Dope Trailer: We only got out once, and didn't even find the boulder with Pareidolia as we didn't have time and it was already getting dark. A few of us did climb "Bible Pimp" and I loved it! no, we weren't sit starting on "Dope Trailer" either, just stand starting with holds at our chest height, but they were to us the most obvious line or start. It would probably be redundant to make a variation in the guide, (I know Mike won't even care) it just seemed to us to be robbing the problem of a few good (but hard) moves to start with arms extended so high. Shorter people would have no choice but to start lower than you guys do as well, so something else to consider.

[ben smith]

Quinn covered most of it.
dope trailer direct was end of the night in july conditions were garbage, might have missed an obvious start, did you start to the left or right of the obvious groove?
I did pushed a long time ago and I find it relatively easy with a hop compared to static. I started on the original start hold not the arete. go try it both ways and see what you think. This part of the comment was actually retarded and full of assumptions about what I'm doing and why all based on video where its hard to see where my hand is. When you start assigning motives to my behaviour you look like a tit if you are factually wrong about something, i.e my ability to do Pushed in its original (basically wack in my opinion) jumpstart form, or the number of pads I was using on Pass the vacuum. Putting some beautiful flowers about how its all cool and I can start where ever I want because I'm a special boy and I can name it whatever I want to but its not really a stand start to Pushed isn't making me any happier. Don't piss on my shoes and tell me it rains yellow water just for special old me.

In font and joshua tree just like here jump starts are short term stop gap ascents that will be replaced and in many cases renamed when someone is strong enough to climb the rock from the ground (often considerably harder hence the beautiful flowers jumpstart). to reverse the situation if i jumped to the lip on Ressurrection before the first ascent so I could beat Nick to the FA would it be cool? or beautiful flowers? What if resurrection ended up being called the Fartknocker sit start because of it?

I'm just being blunt here to cut through what appears to me to be fog of beautiful flowers and backhanded compliments (although I might be wrong, reading for nuance on the internet is hard or maybe I'm just cranky with life). Obvious feet? Shocked? flowers if a video of someone climbing a problem on the internet shocked you you need to get out more. Check the videos of me climbing in prospect. that flowers will make you cry. And maybe try dialing down the hyperbole a bit.

[ben smith]

I posted this before I read lukes last reply. I stand by it but it would probably have been worded less bluntly if I had read his retracted criticism about pushed. frig it. Internet hate baby. its the only thing remotely interesting on this crappy forum.

[ben smith]

you silly sallys writing back to spam bots and flowers. its pathetic.

[ben smith]

http://www.ratemypoo.com/top.html

use above link calibrate your shocked at the internet meter. I guarantee high stand starts will no longer register.

[Quinn]

Luke: Yeah, that was always been the goal, I just had to take the bull by the horns initially to get it off the ground and get people psyched on it. You should check out Paredoilia - one of the nicest lines for it's grade in West Pennant. I have made the following small adjustments to descriptions:

2. A Dope Trailer is No Place For A Kitty Direct V8
Straight up. (FA Ben Smith 2012) Var. Extension - a lower stand start using crimps is possible for shorter climbers and adds 2-3 interesting moves (FA Mike Kohler 2013)

3. Enterprise V7
On the right face of the biggest boulder, start with slopers above head height and climb straight up. Temperature dependent... SDS remains a project. For an extra slopey experience, start matched.

Again, you can always use your own login to make these kinds of changes. The site tracks every change so it can always be reverted if it's too controversial.

Smizzle: I think we can all agree that in the bigger scheme of life, the nitty gritty details of climbing are less than unimportant. Personally, I'm just happy there is a group of people passionate about the sport I love. I agree, commenting on start holds for guidebook accuracy is one thing, but when people start commenting on HOW you climbed a problem (even if you used 10 pads to sit start) it becomes about taking something away from the accomplishment of their friends than guidebook accuracy. Also, undoubtedly, ratemypoo.com gets more hits in a month than CNS will get in it's existence. Maybe that also says something about the importance of climbs.

[stoneseeker]

HAHAA
yep. It was the oldschool internet hate that had this forum teeming with life back in the day, a shame that it sits so stagnant these days...

Anyway, I think it's obvious by now that I honestly didn't mean to undermine your send/motives Smizzy. I did retract my criticism, and DID word in it in a fashion that left my observation of your hand up to uncertainty even in the original post ... but I could see it looking like a passive aggressive shrouded tear down on your character. Unintended result of discussion without faces. I could have worded it more carefully, I'll give you that.
I WAS questioning whether you guys were trying to make sends easier then the original beta though. I don't deny that.(Because I've done it myself) But you answered my question and proved me wrong. -and its an impressive send either way.

I still disagree with the hops start generalized statement though: that hop starts are always inferior to a static start. I don't think it's always the case that one is harder than the other, or more aesthetic, or somehow purer. Hop starts are certainly rarer, and even more rare that they are less-contrived than a possible static start. There are classic problems around the world that simply start too high for static start unless your a giant, and sometimes they are even the obvious and radest way to start the line. I don't think it would always be desirable to replace these with static starts. I think that is your bias for static crimpy movement speaking. (As is my bias for dynamic movement)

I gotta go though, it's nice out finally so getting out to West Pennant today. everyone go crush now and we'll talk again when the rain is back.

"haters are a dying breed" - Ye old Craig Stamp.

[mick]

People still post here?

[Quinn]

Mostly spam bots. And people who talk to spam bots. Plus the 3 people in the world without facebook.

[Scooter]

Depends why you stack. If I can't reach the holds you bet yer ass I'm stacking the frigging pad.

I gets mines Larry.

Jay z and Kanye know what's up. Stacks on stacks on stacks get you maybachs on bachs on bachs.

[seanT]

I think we need to get a new poll going here pussin on sit starts padstacking VS Bolting near gear placements. Which is worse? Gotta love climbing! How i long for the good ole days of Riddel approach shoes.....tight purple spandex....Metallica blasting from my Ghetto Blaster....Bliss........

[Scooter]

Lollll love to see this board active again