dangerous loose blocks--Crack Dance and Rhythm Stick

[amthalmann]

we visited from NS this weekend, and this may have been noted by local climbers already, but there are torso-sized VERY loose blocks on Crack Dance (Burrough's Wall) and one very loose boulder balanced on a pillar on Rhythm Stick (I believe that is the name...the corner crack on the far left of ledge above Astroboy).

[Shawn B]

I think you might be talking about Some Enchanted Evening instead of Rythym Stick. Can you confirm whether you ended up climbing up the climber's right of the totem block or the left. Were there bolts on the arête out to climbers left? Did the route have you climb up a corner past somewhat hollow rock to a blocky roof? I think I know of the block you are talking of...microwave sized sitting deep in the corner and in a logical place you would stand on rather than pull on. Its very hard to get up there and trundle anything...has to be dry enough to climb as coming from the top is brutal. Also hard to know whether anyone is passing below since you have to climb 3 pitches to get there.

[motanb]

Wow! Someone climbed crackdance! This makes me chuckle Did you like it?

[Greg]

I think you might be talking about Some Enchanted Evening instead of Rythym Stick. Can you confirm whether you ended up climbing up the climber's right of the totem block or the left. Were there bolts on the arête out to climbers left? Did the route have you climb up a corner past somewhat hollow rock to a blocky roof? I think I know of the block you are talking of...microwave sized sitting deep in the corner and in a logical place you would stand on rather than pull on. Its very hard to get up there and trundle anything...has to be dry enough to climb as coming from the top is brutal. Also hard to know whether anyone is passing below since you have to climb 3 pitches to get there.

I think you are right that it is Some Enchanted Evening Shawn although there is a loose block on Rhythm Sticks as well. Removing that would definitely take a coordinated effort with someone near the base of L Shape sweeping the area to make sure no one was around and then finding a safe place to retreat! Obviously it would have to happen on a weekday.

[amthalmann]

Sounds sort of right...the block was definitely microwave-sized, though it wasn't sitting in a corner, it was actually balanced on a detached pillar and you went up a crack behind it. It is quite frighteningly placed as it is right where someone would instinctively place their feet if they didn't want to jam or layback the crack.

[amthalmann]

Oh and yes there were bolts on the climber's left for the upper part.

[Dom]

How were the blackflies?

[amthalmann]

not too bad up high, but on lower belays used a bug net over helmet. they seemed to only come out midday, gone by evening.

[john]

the block on rythmstick has been that waty forever its easily avoided and ithink removing it will loosen more blocks then its just janga after that. I have literally done thi route 100 times as is. I think there is loose rock at every crag and i dont get peoples want to remove it all. If you need a jack and days and lots of effort just leave it post a warning if you want but in many cases i think its unnecessary to remove them

[cory]

the block on rythmstick has been that waty forever its easily avoided and ithink removing it will loosen more blocks then its just janga after that.

You may be right, but if you read back carefully there is some question about the exact location of the block. It may be the same old rocker we are familiar with. Then again, it may have moved over the winter and may be in a more precarious location, or it may be a different block altogether. Before you make a reassuring statement to others, it might be a good idea to check it out, so you can base a statement on fact. Or was one of your hundred ascents in the past month?

I think there is loose rock at every crag and i dont get peoples want to remove it all. If you need a jack and days and lots of effort just leave it post a warning if you want but in many cases i think its unnecessary to remove them

Your first statement explained exactly "why peoples want to remove it", once one thing goes "more blocks just jenga after that". The freeze-thaw cycle fractures rock. It, along with wind/rain erosion of soil, will also move loose rock blocks. Sometimes a few mm (which is not obvious to the eye) is enough to alter the pivot point upon which the block sits, so that a climber dislodges it under force. Hilarity will ensue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz65AOja ... detailpage

[*Chris*]

Within the past week an experienced wall climber was killed when a loose flake fell (and possibly triggered other blocks), and his lead rope was cut. He came to a quick stop several hundred feet below when his static haul line caught him.

http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-51913

I'm willing to bet that the Muir wall is climbed 100 times for every time somebody goes up the L-shape. Why did it decide to let go on that particular day when thousands of climbers yanked on it and placed gear behind it before?

You can say that you accept the risk of rockfall hazards (we all do) but I'm sure that's little comfort to those affected when time and gravity finally prevail. I think it's one thing when the loose blocks are unpredictable and come from nowhere. It's another altogether when we know about them and don't do anything.

Anyone willing to trundle that thing on a quiet day will have my full support and thanks.

Cheers.

[Joe]

I don't believe it's necessary (or even possible) to remove all loose rock in an effort to provide 100% safe climbing areas. Loose rock is part of the climbing experience, and a climber must learn how to deal with it. In the Rockies it is part of the character of the area. But even in major climbing areas like North Conway and Rumney, loose rock is tolerated. It is not uncommon to see an "X" marked on a loose block, or to read a warning in the guidebook about a loose section. Obviously the local decision was to warn climbers of those loose rock as opposed to trundle it (although I'm sure other looser rock had been removed earlier).

Yes, a risk assessment decision must be made regarding the imminence of threat from loose rock, and the definition of "loose" is not black and white. Dangerous rock should be removed, but in my opinion when rock is removed because of potential degradation over time from freeze/thaw action, it is going too far. If and when a rock becomes very unstable, it can be dealt with then. Natural erosion cannot be stopped and there will always be some risk involved in rock climbing, even at sport crags.

[Stacey]

As written at the beginning of any and all guide books

"Climbing is inherently dangerous"

I see both sides of the coin here.

Obvious loose rocks to be disposed of, makes sense...

unsure from my personal lack of expertise re: jack&removal of large flakes etc.

I think it's a case of personal opinion, and as with anything...there will always be a difference of opinion.

But regardless, climbing is dangerous. It can never be made 100% safe.

Heck, nothing is 100% safe.

[john]

Cory

What makes you think I have not climbed it multiple times this year?

[cory]

What makes you think I have not climbed it multiple times this year?

You didn't say that you had done it this year, that is why I asked

was one of your hundred ascents in the past month?

You still have not answered the question.

I also explained that this may be not be the same block you are referring to. Not to mention the other loose block on Crack Dance. Furthermore, I gave valid explanations as to why it is sometimes advisable to deliberately trundle loose rock. As yet more evidence, here is another case that serves as a prime example of how frequent traffic as well as block mass relative to climber mass do not ensure the stability of a particular route. http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/cl ... -on-el-cap http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web13s/feat ... -muir-wall
You'll notice from the second link, that "Loose Sharp Flake" even appears as a warning on the topo.

So, john, do you concede, or do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your opinion and continuation of this debate?

[john]

things get loose, things fall, its rock climbing, I think the cleaning efforts this year have been crazy. Climbing is not safe and flowers can always happen. This whole route is and has been always loose. if you try clean up this rute you might as wwell take most of the route down and tons of other routes in nb.

I say leave it alone if it doesn't come manually or with minimal intervention.

[Adam]

things get loose, things fall, its rock climbing, I think the cleaning efforts this year have been crazy. Climbing is not safe and flowers can always happen. This whole route is and has been always loose. if you try clean up this rute you might as wwell take most of the route down and tons of other routes in nb.

I say leave it alone if it doesn't come manually or with minimal intervention.

yes, climbing is inherently dangerous, but i think suggesting people not try to make their home crag safer is ridiculous. if you don't like it you don't have to contribute.

if you want loose rock and that type of adventure, then go to the Rockies or where ever else you find loose rock.
just because it is done a certain way in Conway or whereever else doesn't mean that is how we need to do it here. I would much rather have someone bring a block down controlled than grab it and pull it off myself. i agree that block might have remained in situ for a long time, but none of us can guarantee that.

[cory]

Apparently previous personal experience on one particular route is enough to repeatedly voice a strong opinion on all other loose blocks and routes. One does not have to actually see, touch, pull or attempt to climb the loose blocks in question. Instead, simply make an assumption and question the sanity of those who have concern for the well-being of the climbing community (including yourself) if their experience, examination, consideration, planning, co-operation and execution conflicts with your own abstract philosophy. This looks good on you.