Safety Questions (GriGri / PAS / Setting a TR anchor)

[sam]

I bought a GriGri a few weeks ago and have been using it for top-rope belaying ever since, I just had a couple of questions about its use before I use it for anything more. I also have a couple questions about my personal anchor system, and my top rope anchoring.

I figure it's best to ask here before ever putting anything into practice!

1. Is my GriGri "auto-locking"? I've been given mixed responses to this on Reddit and can't really seem to get a straight answer. I guess what I mean is; is it OK to take my break hand off if I'm belaying with a GriGri? Note: while using the GriGri these past couple of weeks I have never let my break hand leave the rope, because I was unsure if it was safe or not. I figured I'd ask around before I risk anything.

2. Is there a non-awkward way of belaying a lead climber with a GriGri? So far I love the thing, except for the fact that I have to switch back to my ATC whenever I belay a lead climber. It'd be sweet if there was some secret to making it not-awkward-as-hell to lead-belay with a GriGri... I doubt there is, but it's worth asking I suppose.

3. I have a metolius personal anchor system ("PAS") (http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas_per ... ystem.html)with a green loop on 1 end, a yellow loop on the opposite end, and black loops in between. Does it matter, safety-wise, where I clip in on my PAS? What I mean is; is it OK to clip 1 end of the anchor into my harness, and clip myself into the bolts half way through my PAS? I can illustrate it if you guys can't understand my description

4. Any tips on "equalizing" my non-auto-adjusting top-rope anchor? I find sometimes (celestial motion for example) it can be a tedious process to equalize my anchor. I set the anchor, drop it over the edge, see if it's equalized with a tug, if not I take it down, redo it, etc... this only really is the case when I have to drop the anchor over a ledge. How do I equalize it without having to guesstimate as per where I should tie the knot? Note: I haven't ever climbed with a non-equalized anchor, don't worry.

[Dom]

1. Is my GriGri "auto-locking"? I've been given mixed responses to this on Reddit and can't really seem to get a straight answer. I guess what I mean is; is it OK to take my break hand off if I'm belaying with a GriGri? Note: while using the GriGri these past couple of weeks I have never let my break hand leave the rope, because I was unsure if it was safe or not. I figured I'd ask around before I risk anything.

Officially I don't think it's an auto-locking device per se but unofficially yes it is. You should still keep your brake hand on it but it's definitely not as crucial as an atc.

2. Is there a non-awkward way of belaying a lead climber with a GriGri? So far I love the thing, except for the fact that I have to switch back to my ATC whenever I belay a lead climber. It'd be sweet if there was some secret to making it not-awkward-as-hell to lead-belay with a GriGri... I doubt there is, but it's worth asking I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSVchbjVKLE

If you or your partners start working sport routes and hang dog a lot, you'll be glad to use the grigri.

Can't help you for no.3. I've never had a fancy PAS.

4. Any tips on "equalizing" my non-auto-adjusting top-rope anchor? I find sometimes (celestial motion for example) it can be a tedious process to equalize my anchor. I set the anchor, drop it over the edge, see if it's equalized with a tug, if not I take it down, redo it, etc... this only really is the case when I have to drop the anchor over a ledge. How do I equalize it without having to guesstimate as per where I should tie the knot? Note: I haven't ever climbed with a non-equalized anchor, don't worry.

Use a sliding X. I don't recommend it for gear anchors, but on shiny looking bolts, I think it's fine.



Even better is an sliding x with overhand knots



Note: I would use locking biners for these anchors.


Hope this helps Sam. I'm sure others have different point of view as there is no black and white when it comes to safety.

[austinconrad]

Next time we're out I can show you the "non-ackward" way of belaying a lead climber. It's actually kind of easy once you practise it a few times.

[Caldsy]

From what I've read and also been told you should never use the black loops on your PAS to clip into. always extend the full PAS and clip directly to the Yellow loop.

[Shawn B]

All loops of the PAS are designed full strength...unlike a daisy chain. That said, I'd recommend going to the source for instructions. I'm sure Metolius' website has instructions with it strengths/weaknesses (if not it should). Getting info on a forum may be detrimental to your good health. Same for the gri-gri. See the Petzl site. I know they have instructions and a wealth of other important knowledge on their site. As far as anything anchor related John Long's two anchor books are a must read. Multiple options (sliding x, knotted cord, etc.) with their strengths/weaknesses should be understood and situationally applied. My own opinion...ever did like the sliding x with one sling as in the photo above...lacks redundancy.

[*Chris*]

Sam,

I take a different perspective on most that has been said. Dom has it squarely correct... in climbing safety, there is no black and white response. You must be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the various pieces of equipment in play, and the techniques used. You then build your safety system to fit each unique circumstance, and to suit the risk tolerance of you and your partner.

I will say this... learning belay and protection systems from internet forums is less than ideal. Although on this site you may be able to connect usernames with real people... you probably can't do that on elsewhere. I'd recommend finding leaders who have experience from hundreds of pitches, in varying locations, who admit that they don't know all the answers. Those are the people you want to pose your questions to.

All disclaimers aside:

1) Gri-gri: Why would you ever need to remove your hand from the brake? Simple answer... you don't. Belaying comes first... everything else can wait. Anyone who'd suggest otherwise are unfit climbing partners. You should learn how to tie-off and escape a belay to deal with true emergencies and that is true regardless of any belay device you choose. As for lead-belaying with it... I'll let others provide the best answer. Any techniques I've ever seen require the belayer to purposefully circumvent the camming action of the device... and since that seems bewildering to me personally... I never use it to lead belay.

2) P.A.S: This device's entire purpose for being is such that you can clip safely into any loop. The manufacture's instructions clearly indicate this. It was designed as a superior alternative to older-style daisy chains... where intermediate pocket stitching was designed to hold body-weight only. If it were only safe to use the two end loops, it would render the device as very complicated and expensive sling with no added benefits. Personally, I've come to learn that this device is just another thing I don't need on my harness. I've safely climbed about 150 pitches so far this year without one. Learn to tie in with rope 100% of the time. You can't go wrong.

3) Anchors: Perfect equalization without the possibility of any extension is a myth. The two principals are a trade off in every fancy new anchor that's been invented in recent years. You must simply pick which principal you'd prefer more of given the situation your facing. To be perfectly honest... a top-rope scenario will never generate sufficient force to rip both of your less-than-perfectly-equalized bolts. Simply do your best to anticipate the direction of pull. That said... the principal of redundancy trumps all. A top-rope scenario that has a single skinny sling sliding back and forth over a sharp edge at the same spot can very plausibly lead to disaster. For that reason... if you choose to use sliding X's as Dom suggests... consider backing up the power-point with another sling, a draw, or some other means.

I don't claim to know all. My suggestion is to consider opinions from leaders you respect... apply your own critical thinking... and figure out what works for you.

[Stacey]

Sam,

...

1) Gri-gri: Why would you ever need to remove your hand from the brake? Simple answer... you don't. Belaying comes first... everything else can wait. Anyone who'd suggest otherwise are unfit climbing partners. You should learn how to tie-off and escape a belay to deal with true emergencies and that is true regardless of any belay device you choose. As for lead-belaying with it... I'll let others provide the best answer. Any techniques I've ever seen require the belayer to purposefully circumvent the camming action of the device... and since that seems bewildering to me personally... I never use it to lead belay.


...

I solely use the gri-gri for lead belaying (unless we're in the mountains and using double ropes), but I still totally agree with Chris, that 'auto-locking' or not...DO NOT remove your brake hand. I still employ the BUS system (Break, Under, Slide) even while using a gri-gri. I like how Petzl calls the Gri-Gri : Belay device with assisted breaking. Yes, it has an auto-locking system, but YOU as the belayer are the one responsible for the safety of the belay.


Chris is right, you remove the auto-locking when you properly lead belay with the gri-gri (thus your brake hand must always still stay on)...
petzl has some great videos, etc.

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/petzl-t ... techniques

[Stacey]

Sam,

...

1) Gri-gri: Why would you ever need to remove your hand from the brake? Simple answer... you don't. Belaying comes first... everything else can wait. Anyone who'd suggest otherwise are unfit climbing partners. You should learn how to tie-off and escape a belay to deal with true emergencies and that is true regardless of any belay device you choose. As for lead-belaying with it... I'll let others provide the best answer. Any techniques I've ever seen require the belayer to purposefully circumvent the camming action of the device... and since that seems bewildering to me personally... I never use it to lead belay.


...

I solely use the gri-gri for lead belaying (unless we're in the mountains and using double ropes), but I still totally agree with Chris, that 'auto-locking' or not...DO NOT remove your brake hand. I still employ the BUS system (Break, Under, Slide) even while using a gri-gri. I like how Petzl calls the Gri-Gri : Belay device with assisted breaking. Yes, it has an auto-locking system, but YOU as the belayer are the one responsible for the safety of the belay.


Chris is right, you remove the auto-locking when you properly lead belay with the gri-gri (thus your brake hand must always still stay on)...
petzl has some great videos, etc.

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/petzl-t ... techniques

[austinconrad]

I also prefer lead belaying with a Gri Gri. You do have to bypass the auto locking function by holding down the cam with your thumb but this really isn't a safety issue. If the lead climber fell when your thumb was holding the cam it would engage as soon as you took it off which you would do anyways to firmly grab the rope with your brake hand. When you hold down the cam the rest of your hand still holds the rope. I liked the gri gri ever since Sam and I had a little incident where a falling rock hit him in the back and caused him to allmost let go of the rope (natural reaction is to put arm over your face when a rock is flying at it). The rope slipped through the device and all in all I fell about 15 feet and I was on top rope. In this situation it wasn;t a big deal but had it been a lead fall I would have certainly hit the ground. You only really have to disengage the cam when feeding out slack for clipping the rest of the time you can feed it through slowly and not engage the cam. It's also great if the climber is resting as you don't have to constantly pull the brake rope to hold the climber.

[sam]

I liked the gri gri ever since Sam and I had a little incident where a falling rock hit him in the back and caused him to allmost let go of the rope (natural reaction is to put arm over your face when a rock is flying at it).

What Austin is trying to say is he pulled on a sketchy crimp and the entire thing peeled off, which he held firmly into his hands, turned around, aimed carefully for my face, and threw

Just kidding.

Thanks for the advice everybody! I have my trad rack now and I believe I found somebody to teach me trad placements in exchange for some hard labour!