Route cleaning/trail maintenance

[Adam]

Should we start to think about a day/weekend of work this fall at Cochrane Lane? and/or another location? Making this a yearly effort really makes a difference in trail maintenance and to clean the less travelled classics to keep them more inviting.

Thoughts?

I promise I won't rebolt anything without community consent

[*Chris*]

I'm in.

[cory]

I'm in.

One project we should consider is:

The 40m or so of trail directly below the sign-in box needs attention. It was twelve years (or so) ago that we planted some trees, and build steps to control erosion. At the time we felt pressure treated was a bad choice environmentally, but didn't have the cash to use cedar, so compromised and used hemlock, which has some natural decay resistance. As you've noticed, that may not have been the best decision. Now we've got rotting wood with steel rebar protruding.

I think the underlying issue here is the choice of path for the trail. That section is too steep according to modern trail standards with regards to erosion control. (These guys for example http://www.appalachiantrail.org/what-we-do/trail-management-support who maintain a world-class trail through the same climate and forest.) Now I'm sure there will be flack from those who feel "It's always been there like that, so leave it alone", but a more logical solution would be to redirect the trail slightly through this section. There appears to be a natural slope that continues straight as soon as the woods open up (and the current trail turns uphill and widens) that would lead to about the first notable boulder halfway between the sign-in box and the Waterfall Wall trail. Properly building a new section of trail through here, and reclaiming forest over the old section will likely be less work, cheaper, and solve the erosion problem on a much longer term. Also, we'd likely move the sign-in to the new intersection.

[Dom]

As an exec I've been trying to bring get the club involved in the trail maintenance and use some UNB rock and ice funds to fund this project but haven't been given a definite yes because this could allegedly create access issues. What frustrates me though is these 'allegations' are based on hearsay... Meanwhile we have decaying wood with protuding rebar. (If a military got hurt stepping on that, wonder if that would create access issues ) Anyways, pretty obvious to see which side of the fence I'm on.

For those of you who were involved building it years ago like Cory what are your thoughts on access.

[sam]

Myself and emma would be down to help out. I'm sure Austin Conrad and Adam Thimot would come too if I bugged them

[Caldsy]

I'm game! I've also got a chainsaw and good snips (Fiskars for smaller trees etc). We could make a weekend out of it and camp out!

[sam]

We could make a weekend out of it and camp out!

Don't forget climbing

[*Chris*]

Cory,

First, let me say that I think your heart is in the right place. That said, I think we'd be facing a difficult uphill battle (pun intended) to relocate the long-existing trail. Although it would be feasible to construct a new trail along the route you suggest it would be very difficult to convince the masses to use it. I think decommissioning the existing trail to the point where folks would want to use the new one would be so difficult, that the effort would be better spent hardening/repairing the existing stairway. I'd have no hesitation in using pressure treated lumber this time around.

Dom,

As I've said before to you... this information is indeed hearsay as far as I'm concerned. When I took over the club presidency I spent time talking to John B. (former president) about this exact issue. His message on the subject was that at the time of the last access crisis, CFB Gagetown asked the club not to get involved in erecting permanent structures on base. Although I interpret this as referring to the old UNB R&I lean-to camp that tops Cheekbone Corner, John interpreted it as also including trail structures such as stairs. This discussion would now have been a number of years ago so things may have evolved. In the time I was on the club exec... the consensus seemed to be that the club best let sleeping dogs lie. However, your exec may find it worthwhile to investigate further. I'd suggest personally that the best option is for trail days to remain unofficial community events. (But that doesn't stop the club from supporting them unofficially.)

Also,

I'd suggest equally deserving are the terribly eroding conditions leading towards Sunnyside Wall, the Ampitheatre, and towards Lower Dawn Wall. All are very deserving. All would be significant projects.

Do we have anyone in this forum/community who has significant expertise/experience in slope stabilization and trail construction? I certainly don't.

[*Chris*]

Oh... and I forgot to mention that this kind of thing might be an excellent use of the donation account that Calvin set up. In fact... I'm sure both individuals and organizations could make anonymous donations to the cause.

[Dom]

Oh... and I forgot to mention that this kind of thing might be an excellent use of the donation account that Calvin set up. In fact... I'm sure both individuals and organizations could make anonymous donations to the cause.

I'm pretty sure that account doesn't work. I could set up an account but I'd prefer if someone else did it for transparency reasons, Calvin you still interested in running a paypal account for the benefit of the community?

[Dom]

Do we have anyone in this forum/community who has significant expertise/experience in slope stabilization and trail construction? I certainly don't.

I have a bit. I've helped build mountain bike trails with IMBA in Fundy park. They still haven't opened them to the public though. Gotta love Federal public administration

Anyways, this is a good video. Not everything applies but the part on soil erosion gives a good idea on how to build the trails so that water doesn't stay on the trail...

Water is the enemy in trail building.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxTM3iuRzZk

[sam]

His message on the subject was that at the time of the last access crisis, CFB Gagetown asked the club not to get involved in erecting permanent structures on base. Although I interpret this as referring to the old UNB R&I lean-to camp that tops Cheekbone Corner, John interpreted it as also including trail structures such as stairs.

I think given how long it's been since we last inquired about it, and given the potential for the contact person being completely different this time around (and less of a hard ass), it's at least worth somebody on the Exec calling in (Pete? Dom?).

I'd suggest equally deserving are the terribly eroding conditions leading towards Sunnyside Wall, the Ampitheatre, and towards Lower Dawn Wall. All are very deserving. All would be significant projects.

Couldn't agree more @ Sunnyside, it can be really mucky after a few days of rainfall at certain points.

[GKelly]

I have a bunch of treated decking that would be perfect to fix any boardwalk issues. I may also have some 4x4's. Will check tomorrow. I hope to be able to help out as well but spare time ( even to climb ) is not abundant lately.

[Leehammer]

Yes I also have some pressure treated 4x4s that I would be happy to see get used. I also have lots of assorted other lumber leaning against my shed that I hate looking at.

[Pete]

Personally, I think getting some of these trails fixed up is a great idea and will lend a hand if any work does happen. However, before we get the club involved I would like to make sure we don't endanger the current access agreement with DND. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for putting some of the funds directly into the community. I just would like to have our facts straight and our asses covered first.

On that note, there is some pressure treated wood that needs using and I'm sure no one would miss it if it disappeared.

[*Chris*]

Personally, I think getting some of these trails fixed up is a great idea and will lend a hand if any work does happen. However, before we get the club involved I would like to make sure we don't endanger the current access agreement with DND. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for putting some of the funds directly into the community. I just would like to have our facts straight and our asses covered first.

On that note, there is some pressure treated wood that needs using and I'm sure no one would miss it if it disappeared.

+1

I also have a few treated 4x4s to donate to the cause.

[Shawn B]

I think debarked cedar logs seem to hold up the best of anything. PT wood these days seems to be crappy...I just got some for a project and gotta say it isn't nice wood. I have a fair number of cut logs from clearing my view. I don't mind donating some.

[cory]

That said, I think we'd be facing a difficult uphill battle (pun intended) to relocate the long-existing trail....

...the terribly eroding conditions leading towards Sunnyside Wall, the Ampitheatre, and towards Lower Dawn Wall. All are very deserving. All would be significant projects.

I agree, though we start off trails with good intentions, as soon as the cliff is in sight we tend to get anxious (and careless) and make a beeline uphill. Though we may plan on coming back to redirect it and finish it properly, it never happens. (Let that be a lesson to all you trail builders and FAists out there: Do it right, do it once. )

At Cedar Pt, we thought the Torpedoes/Crazy Yahoo anchor would make a good rap in spot, so cleared a trail only to realize this was a major drainage path with very thin soil supporting death blocks. No matter what is written in the guidebook and how much debris I pile in there to cover the trail, people keep clearing it out and setting up TR's! My first post on this thread was unrealistically optimistic; as you said, *Chris*, convincing the masses to use it would be very difficult. Hell even now, people walk around the erosion control bars wearing a new path, rather than make a 4" step up!

From what I understand, pressure treated lumber is not kiln dried, nor is it stamped as structural. The mills basically take the junk wood, and treat it while it's still green. Hence why it's all twisted, split and checked by it's second summer. Though it may be adequate for decking on bridges, I think we're best to use Shawn's idea of cedar for anything structural or we may be facing the same problem in a few years. As a comparison, look how much better the steps just above the brook have faired: This used to be an absolute muck hole that was far wetter than the steps below the sign-in. They were built at least one year earlier, using cedar and apple stakes to secure old fallen cedars that we scavenged from the surrounding forest floor.

I have a fair bit of know-how and experience with this type of trail work and am willing to act as foreman for a crew.

[Greg]

I am happy to help with trail maintenance and route cleaning. Thanks Adam for spearheading this - it is something that is worthwhile and important. I would like to work on access trails to the climbs near the base of the cliff. It is a jungle between Waterfall Wall and Gollums. I would like to clean that up and make it more accessible.

How about a weekend in early November?

As for the replacement of the stairs near the sign in box we might want to think about just doing some repairs to the existing stairs for this year. The rebar could easily be pounded back down flush with the wood and a couple hours work would go a long way there. When we are ready to replace them I would be happy to donate some cedar logs. I have a bunch kicking around on my woodlot that would do the job and they are ready to go. Shawn and Cory are right, cedar is the best choice. It will go 30 years without rotting and is a much better choice than pt wood.

[Dom]

I was at lower dawn yesterday and the base of the cliff is badly eroding away since that major rock fall a few years back. This should definitely be remedied and I see this as a priority in the trail maintenance (this is my opinion of course). I think a dirt platform at the base of the cliff would be the solution with wood planks as a retaining wall. We could figure out something for the steps after. Thoughts?

We would probably have to contact CFB GAGE?

[cory]

We would probably have to contact CFB GAGE?

Yes. You, collectively as an executive, should put together a formal proposal outlining the project, objectives, standards (materials and techniques), and of course include a preamble on the historical (and formally documented) relationship between UNBR&I and CFB Gagetown. Marty & Shawn can probably give you some insight into what a proper military report entails. Who knows, they may even supply manpower and materials.

[Dom]

I feel this is more of a community project, and not a UNB R&I project. The agreement is between the R&I and DND though. So, you're right in saying that the execs should contact DND for an approval. We are working on it. Just want to make it clear, that if this happens, it will be a community project, and not a UNB Rock and Ice project so everyone should chip in. It seems like a few people are willing to help out and that's very encouraging.

[theriault]

Marty & Shawn can probably give you some insight into what a proper military report entails.

I can definitely put some weight on this side of things, I know a few key peoples up the chain that might just help! Worth a try... And for the paper work, we can easily send in a proper military ''memo'' asking for help/permission on the project.

[Adam]

Hey moderators, can we put a sticky at the top of this thread to track the suggested projects, and who has what as far as materials?

- CL main trail stairs section
- Dawn Wall erosion
- Sunnyside trail
- cave -> waterfall wall

[Adam]

and yeah i'm thinking early november is a good time. days are often very cool so good for work, and we'll be less inclined to go climb instead! days are shorter tho so we'd want to get started early. perhaps a whole weekend and camp out so we have two days to work. weather permitting of course.

[Adam]

I feel this is more of a community project, and not a UNB R&I project. The agreement is between the R&I and DND though. So, you're right in saying that the execs should contact DND for an approval. We are working on it. Just want to make it clear, that if this happens, it will be a community project, and not a UNB Rock and Ice project so everyone should chip in. It seems like a few people are willing to help out and that's very encouraging.

hey guys, have you made contact regarding this?? November is fast approaching!

speaking of which, is there a weekend people would prefer to do this? November 10/11th?

[Caldsy]

I'm still willing to help out.

[theriault]

speaking of which, is there a weekend people would prefer to do this? November 10/11th?

Nov 11 is Remembrance day.... What about the the first weekend of Nov (3/4)?

[Dom]

hey guys, have you made contact regarding this?? November is fast approaching!

speaking of which, is there a weekend people would prefer to do this? November 10/11th?

Nope too much controversy...

I got about 7-8 very long 2x6 of treated wood that were donated to me for trail building so I'm willing to try and make something more stable at lower dawn wall but I'll need help from a few others whichever weekend we chose. Like Marty said though, a long weekend might be a bad idea since many of us might be on climbing trips that weekend. (Bar Harbor maybe?)

[Adam]

sounds good. Nov 3/4 it is! Hallowe'en party at my place on the 3rd!

projects:
- CL main trail stairs section (saturday?)
- Dawn Wall erosion (saturday?)
- cave -> waterfall wall (saturday?)
- Sunnyside trail (sunday?)

Volunteers (please shout out if you can't make it to give us an idea of manpower available):
Samuel Stiles and Emma
Norfolk
Cory Goodman
Dom
Marty
Adam
Dan
Greg
GKelly?

Lumber/Logs - anyone have a truck to move it all in one go? *cough*MartyShawn?
cedar - Greg, Shawn B
pressure treated - Dom, Liam, GKelly, Adam, Chris


tools needed:
spade shovel (Adam)
8pound maul hammer ?????
bucksaw (Adam)
chainsaw (Dan)


routes needing cleaning????