Sticky Fingers

[Shawn B]

So I just climbed Sticky Fingers again yesterday and got to thinking about the bolt(s) controversy from a few years ago. Don't mean to bring it up again but its been pretty boring here lately and what better way to bring some excitement.

First to the chopper who did a total hack job (and from what I understand still hasn't had the sack to own up to what he did) go back and clean up your left over mess. Your half-a chop job is an eye sore.

Second the reasoning behind the "retro" bolting rather than "re" bolting from my understanding is rock quality. When Adam was replacing the old bolt the rock quality was poor where the original bolt was placed so he could not replace it in a close location to the original. He had to place it either higher or lower...both of which created an issue. Higher and the moves when above the roof before reaching the 2nd bolt have potential groundfall or very bad fall in under the roof. Lower and same issue before reaching the next available gear placement. So he placed two, one 2 feet below and one 2 feet above. I agreed with this decision when he was doing it as I was on a nearby route. Different arguements for/against happened and the chopper made his own statement that his opinion is superior to everyone else and chopped it...and it has remained that way since.

A few years have passed and having just climbed it again got me thinking about a few things…
1. There is no “good” gear between the top of the roof and the bolt. A marginal #3 nut in suspect rock and an ok #1 metolius in a horizontal (which by the way was closer to the original bolt than either of the two new ones). Any other gear is not on the route but a few feet right on Mammalian.
2. Retro’ing with 2 bolts really didn’t change the nature of the route. It just prevented ground or bad consequence falls below the roof. The “goods” on the traverse still required gear placements. I would agree that the nature was changed if there was a bolt installed half way through the traverse.
3. If you could argue that the nature was changed, then the wrong bolt was chopped.

Any other opinions or thoughts out there?

[PeterA]

Any other opinions or thoughts out there?

Nothing to say, just let me grab my popcorn

[*Chris*]

Ha... excellent topic Shawn.

My recollection of the events is exactly the same as yours. I was also on a nearby route and the two of us talked it out with Adam at the time he was re-bolting.

I recently lead the route and found the same... good gear is considerably right on Mammalian. The supposed micro-nut placement was shite... or at least far from 'bomber' as it was described. I'd be very surprised if it were to hold me in a fall. The real spice on the route is placing small gear during the traverse.

The thing is that Adam was trying to have a mature discussion about it. My bet is that if he'd truly heard consensus against his action... he'd have properly corrected the situation himself.

In any case... this is a brilliant route to lead. A challenge for both both the mind and body.

[GKelly]

I think the damage is done and to put another bolt in might just lead to a real gong show. I don't recall getting to the bolt being half as stressful as the traverse and then the upper crux. Personally I don't Recal seeing a need for a lower bolt but if it was there it would in no way take away from the route. That I am certain of.

[Dom]

I agree completely with your assessment Shawn. Now that I have a bunch of experience rebolting in Cl, I'll say that it doesn't surprise me that the original bolt was in crappy rock. We replaced a few bolts that were installed in hollow rock. The weird part is that there is a ton of solid dense rock in Cochrane lane. Anyways, I agreed with Adam's logic at the time and he did a community service by cleaning the route completely and then rebolting it. How can ppl be pissed at that?? Also, I don't see it as a retrobolt for the reasons you explained Shawn. Basically the two new bolts served the purpose of the old one and didn't change the nature of the route.

And yes please go clean up your mess bolt chopper. That section of the route is an eyesore. It's not hard to cover up the holes and make them blend in with the rock.

[Greg]

I think it is good to continue to assess and critique what has been done. Here are my thoughts.....I don't mind the current configuration. For me there are two cruxes on the route and it is the upper one that gives me pause more than the lower. Shawn I am pretty sure there is a pink tri cam in a nice horizontal just after the roof. If that were placed I don't think a ground fall is likely before clipping the bolt. I climbed it last fall and put a cam in to protect the roof and then nothing between that and the bolt. That part of the route is pretty easy. The holds are there and the clipping stance is solid. I really like the route the way it is. I think Greg Kelly is probably right - rebolting it now could end up being a flowers show. My 2 cents.

[PeterA]

And yes please go clean up your mess bolt chopper. That section of the route is an eyesore. It's not hard to cover up the holes and make them blend in with the rock.

Last I saw, the chopped bolt still visible is the original one. It's been a while though

-PJ

[Shawn B]

I'm more p'd about the way it was done and the mess left behind than the fact that it was done. And from discussions amongst the many who were climbing there Sunday the person who "took the heat" for the chopping wasn't the actual chopper. Wonder how the chopper would feel if some of their routes got chopped and no one came forward to claim their actions.

And no PJ the real messy chop job is not the original bolt. I think you can still see where the original bolt was as well but at least it is not freshly scarred with broken rock all around where the bolt stud was. It stares you right in the face when you are standing on the jugs just above the roof. Pretty ugly.

Greg, the bomber pink tricam is in a horizontal right at the lip of the roof and protects the roof move. The lip of the roof is at about 15 feet with leg shattering ledges 3 feet above the ground. The tricam with draw sit a foot below the lip of the roof. Your feet will be about 4 feet above the lip of the roof when you are able to clip the bolt. So that leaves about 8 feet of rope out from the rope end biner = about an 18 foot fall with a good belay. No moves aren't hard but are a bit insecure until reaching the good clipping foot and hand holds.

The goal of a bolt should be to prevent ground/ledge/serious fall...otherwise don't even place one. I'm still of the opinion that the two bolts Adam placed makes more sense than the original one bolt and did not change the nature of the real parts of the climb...the traverse to the crack and the upper crux.

[PeterA]

I'm more p'd about the way it was done and the mess left behind than the fact that it was done. And from discussions amongst the many who were climbing there Sunday the person who "took the heat" for the chopping wasn't the actual chopper. Wonder how the chopper would feel if some of their routes got chopped and no one came forward to claim their actions.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6080&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=sticky+fingers&start=30 should clear one thing up for you. Cory posted on here that he chopped the bolt in the original thread

-PJ

[cory]

Hard to sit back in the audience some times, eh PJ?

Nothing to say, just let me grab my popcorn

I would like to make it clear that this Cory (Goodman) is not THE Cory who appointed himself the fixed hardware sovereign, and unilaterally took (sloppy) action to remove the bolt. That was coryhal. At least he's the one who took responsibility for the act. I hear otherwise and that though he endorsed the effort (like Shawn B and *Chris* who were present during Adam's re-bolting and endorsed a 2-for-1 due to rock integrity) coryhal didn't actually swing the hammer.

coryhal, please set the record straight: Are you responsible for the physical act of removing the bolt on Sticky Fingers? If so did you act alone?

[PeterA]

Hard to sit back in the audience some times, eh PJ?

Nothing to say, just let me grab my popcorn

I would like to make it clear that this Cory (Goodman) is not THE Cory who appointed himself the fixed hardware sovereign, and unilaterally took (sloppy) action to remove the bolt. That was coryhal. At least he's the one who took responsibility for the act. I hear otherwise and that though he endorsed the effort (like Shawn B and *Chris* who were present during Adam's re-bolting and endorsed a 2-for-1 due to rock integrity) coryhal didn't actually swing the hammer.

coryhal, please set the record straight: Are you responsible for the physical act of removing the bolt on Sticky Fingers? If so did you act alone?

He's in Peru, I doubt he'll answer you for a while

I maintain I didn't really join in. I still haven't stated my opinion. Just lurking around, throwing in neutral tidbits

-PJ

[Leehammer]

PJ you just maxed out your quota for usage of the word "tidbits"

[IanLingley]

Hey Guys
Finally have a reason to join the form.
I went up to chop the bolt on sticky fingers after the 2 bolts were placed. When I got to Joe’s there was already an attempt at removing the bolt with a hammer on a previous day, which was not successful. I had access to a chisel and with one blow removed the bolt. I didn’t have anything to fill the hole, I tapped a small rock in it and it looked ok (other then the scares around the hole), the rock probably fell out by now. It needs some of Dom’s glue + granite mix to patch it.
There’s good small gear on the sticky fingers route at the bottom, and if you would prefer clip medium size gear, there’s a placement on Mammalian.. if you reach a little right.

[PeterA]

PJ you just maxed out your quota for usage of the word "tidbits"

Fine, I'll stop using tidbits. I still have a menagerie of other words at my disposal

-PJ

[theriault]

It needs some of Dom’s glue + granite mix to patch it.

Dude, its a 5$ epoxy tube and granite crumbs.... pretty simple.... and easy

[IanLingley]

Thanks Dude,
Ill have to get some epoxy, anyone know a good spot to pick up granite crumbs??

[theriault]

check HomeDepot, they have a great granite crumb selection at great prices!

[Dom]

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/6/Tools/SpecialtyTools/TapeGlueSealants/PRD~0671401P/Mighty%252BPutty.jsp?locale=en

This is what I use. It's not super sticky so you wont make a mess or anything. After putting in the hole use some granite crumbs you found on the ground and hammer them lightly into the putty. Voilà!

[cory]

Hey Guys
Finally have a reason to join the form.

Do you mean that 2 years ago, when the 2-for-1 re-bolt took place, and then a discussion about it's virtue started, and then you took it upon yourself to chop a bolt, and then allowed someone else to take responsibility, it wasn't a good enough reason to join the forum?

[IanLingley]

Hello Cory

I never hid the fact I was the one to finish off the bolt. Sorry I didn’t write it on the internet until now.

[Shawn B]

Appreciate you stepping up now Ian and claiming responsibility for your action and for what appears to be your intention that you will finally repair the damage.

As I outlined there was thought and reasoning behind the 2 for 1 re-bolt. Out of curiosity, was there any thought or reasoning that took place before the bolt was removed? Or was it just a knee-jerk, thump my chest, not on my watch, what I say goes type of reaction?

Myself, I like the ethics which we have in Welsford. It is not a bolt at will nor a Ken Nichols extreme. Even North Conway seems to be a bit on the extreme side of things in that they seem to resist the replacing of bolts...which thankfully we so far have been ok with.

I am still of the opinion that the re-bolting that Adam did was well thought out and reasoned and did not change the nature of the route. I am also of the opinion that there is no good gear between the lip of the roof and the bolt without going onto Mammalian. If someone else thinks there is I'd like to see them put their butt on the line and take a whip onto this "good" gear. And if you wanted a true ethical cleansing of this route then both bolts should have been chopped and the original bolt should have never been allowed to remain for the years which it has. Just climb Mammalian to get to the traverse. Also, there are other questionable bolts in Welsford which you did not feel the need to "cleanse"...why not?

[IanLingley]

Hello Shawn

I feel that the route was put up with 1 bolt and the person that did the Fa of the route is not around to ask how they feel about the route, and the route should remain as they left it.
When I got to the bolt it was a smashed carrot bolt missing a hanger. I chopped it as clean as possible and did temporarily fill the hole, with a nice fitting granite pebble.


I’m not sure how the new/retro bolts are being placed but drilling the hole longer then the actual length of the bolt is a good idea, then when being removed/replaced it can be tapped into the rock and covered. Eliminating any potential scaring on the rock. Any reason this isn't a good idea??

[theriault]

I’m not sure how the new/retro bolts are being placed but drilling the hole longer then the actual length of the bolt is a good idea

That is exacly the way Dom, Luc and I rebolted every route we did...

[Shawn B]

So Ian I would consider that you did not chop this bolt under the circumstances you describe. You actually cleaned up someone elses hack job. And since Cory H claimed he chopped it I'm guessing it was him who smashed the stud, broke the rock away around the stud and left the smashed stud since it didn't break off. I don't think it should be your responsibility to cover up the mess. Someone should make sure Cory (when he gets back) is aware that it would be appreciated if he fixed it up...I haven't climbed it for a few years and it really is pretty ugly.

[IanLingley]

Cory had the intent to finish the bolt the same day I did, I happened to be on the rock when he got there so he tossed up a chisel. So “WE” chopped the bolt??
I’ll patch the hole the best I can when I pick up the flowers.

[cory]

I feel that the route was put up with 1 bolt and the person that did the Fa of the route is not around to ask how they feel about the route, and the route should remain as they left it.

Of course the route should remain as they left it. We all feel that it should remain as the FA team intended, but there are two reasons the route could not remain as they left it. One being corrosion, the other being poor rock quality. With deliberation, thought, discussion and reluctance, 2 bolts were used to replace one. To many (but not all) this was a reasonable compromise. Many who disagreed, voiced it in this forum on in person with the kind gentleman who put the time effort and money into replacing rusted hardware in crumbly rock. You had the opportunity to voice your opinion, but chose not to. Why not? Do you feel superior to the rest of the community? Are you afraid that you cannot back up opinion with a reasonable argument?

there’s a placement on Mammalian.. if you reach a little right.

But then, you'd be climbing Mammalian wouldn't you? Or at the very least wouldn't you have to use such a long runner to void the rope drag that you'd be looking at ground fall? Or a pendulum to the ground with a short sling?

drilling the hole longer then the actual length of the bolt is a good idea, then when being removed/replaced it can be tapped into the rock and covered

Not only is this a good idea, it the proper drilling method prescribed by Petzl, Hilti, Fixe, Bosch, The Access Fund, and Climbing's Anchor Replacement Initiative. Is this not how deep you drilled the holes in Greenhead and Kingston?

an attempt at removing the bolt with a hammer on a previous day, which was not successful. I had access to a chisel and with one blow removed the bolt

so he tossed up a chisel

A good wrench will typically suffice.

Ill have to get some epoxy, anyone know a good spot to pick up granite crumbs??

fill the hole, with a nice fitting granite pebble.

Your naiveté continues to astound me.

I’ll patch the hole the best I can when I pick up the flowers.

I hope it doesn't take another 2 years.

[Dom]

I don't get why using a chisel was necessary. That tool would be dangerous to leave permanent scars in the rock. I've chopped a lot of bolts at Cl (to replace them with new ones) and never had to resort to such tool. A hammer works just fine. If not a ratchet to over-tighten the bolt will snap it.

[theriault]

I don't get why using a chisel was necessary. That tool would be dangerous to leave permanent scars in the rock.

I second that Dom! I also never used anything other than a hammer for all my chopped jobs ... even a brand new bolt are easy to chop with a hammer alone... few hits left...few hits right/up/down and she pops like a cherry!

[IanLingley]

You will have to talk to Cory why a hammer and a wrench didn’t do the job the day before. When I got to the bolt a hammer would have only done more damage. And by placing a chisel on the bolt it did no damage to the rock.

[theriault]

I was not part of the first war on this subject, I was living in Qc at the time, and I only climbed the route after the one bolt got chopped…. I have a point that I think most are over looking. The original bolt needed to be changed and someone put the time/effort/money and did it, in doing so added a second bolt because of rock quality…. This did not really change the integrity of the route (as far as I know)….but got the community got into a pretty good debate/fight…. On side reflected on safety and the other side on boldness ( from my outside point of view)… this part of the debate will never be solved….Then someone else chopped one bolt and it went into a flowers show…. We all know the story….What I'm getting to is that the FA'ist is no longer around and he's the only one who could have solved this problem quickly. I don't know this person and I know a bunch of you where his friend, This route is a classic and probably one of the best routes in Welsford/NB… So the FA'ist will always be recognized for his master piece! So lets stop (after the chop job gets fix) this Bull and enjoy talking about the amazing finger locks in the second crux instead of a chopped bolt…… If the community feels a second bolt should be added for safety, well lets vote on it here on CEC and be done with it!

When I'm gone…. I would not like one of my routes to be remembered because of a F'in bolt war!

This is not intended to offend anyone, like I said this is from an outside point of view on this subject
My 2 Cents!