Who chopped trees in Cedar Point?

[Dom]

Who cut the cedar tree on Walk the Plank and Chica Bonita?
First, what was the intention behind it? and second what was used? Looks like an ax?
It looks like crap.

[cory]

Agreed. I did find out the culprit and spoke with him discretely last fall. (Since you just posted this I won't mention his name until he's had some time to view the thread and comment.) I'm not sure of his motives regarding the one near Chica Bonita it certainly wasn't in the way of an existing route and there isn't room for anything else there.

I do know that A Morgan and C Jones planned on coming back to remove the tree from Walk the Plank and shovel off the ledge. They have not, which is too bad as this overstuffed ledge tends to shower the lower part of the slab with dirt and needles whenever a rope or raindrop contacts it. My first thought was those two finally came back and started the removal and for whatever reason stopped. As mentioned above, I found out this was not the case. I suggested to the butcher that since it is even worse in it's current state, he would do a service to the community by completing the tree removal (stump and roots) that the FA party had intended. This was in early November, and though I managed to climb for another month, perhaps he didn't. I think and hope he will (and the ground is still frozen out there) be back shortly to complete the stump/dirt removal.

[GKelly]

It does look pretty awful. If the whole stump can not be removed it should at least be sawed off.

[GKelly]

Impressive effort though. Must have taken a while.

[Dom]

Impressive effort though. Must have taken a while.

Not if he's from Memramcook hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei0q_7tlSsQ&feature=related

[aaronhart]

i cleared the trees on walk the plank. it was a pain in the ass to untangle the rope every time from first rappel. i left the stump there so u could throw a sling around it for natural protection. but if its not liked i will bring a buck saw and finish it off. i also agree the ledge should be cleaned the rest of the way from dirt and rocks. i did alot of cleaning of dirt already but there is many hours to get it 100 percent. its a great route one of my favorites there i was making it better in my mind. so once again i left the stump there for natural pro with a sling in mind. and i used a machete cold steel magnum highly recommended love it for small brush cutting. have had it for 5 years and its still golden. i did not cut the tree on chica bonita tho. thanks to all the route setters out there. its a wonderful place to climb.

[Dom]

i cleared the trees on walk the plank. it was a pain in the ass to untangle the rope every time from first rappel. i left the stump there so u could throw a sling around it for natural protection. but if its not liked i will bring a buck saw and finish it off. i also agree the ledge should be cleaned the rest of the way from dirt and rocks. i did alot of cleaning of dirt already but there is many hours to get it 100 percent. its a great route one of my favorites there i was making it better in my mind. so once again i left the stump there for natural pro with a sling in mind. and i used a machete cold steel magnum highly recommended love it for small brush cutting.

Cool, thanks for doing some cleaning. I can see where you are coming from to leave a stump for slinging it because it is a 20' runout. On the other hand, I'm not sure leaving a 3 foot tall stump makes the route safer. I would certainly not want to fall on it. That being said it is a 5.5 section.
I think the route would be better without the stump and adding a bolt in lieu of it would give it a cleaner look(not to mention make it safer). If the FA opposes to the addition of the bolt, medium cams could be used I believe.
That is my opinion but Walk the plank is not one of my routes so it doesn't really matter.

i did not cut the tree on chica bonita tho. thanks to all the route setters out there. its a wonderful place to climb

I did bolt and clean Chica Bonita though, so I find it a bit irritating that someone cut that nice cedar that was next to it and left a 3' tall stump.

Strange coincidence wouldn't you say?

[aaronhart]

next time im out there ill clean both those stumps with a bucksaw flush to the ground as i can get with out rasping my knuckles.

[cory]

is a 5.5 section.
I think the route would be better without the stump and adding a bolt in lieu of it would give it a cleaner look(not to mention make it safer). If the FA opposes to the addition of the bolt, medium cams could be used I believe.

I bet once it's cleaned off there will be tonnes of optional gear placements if Jones and Morgan don't want to add a bolt.

next time im out there ill clean both those stumps with a bucksaw flush to the ground as i can get with out rasping my knuckles.

You may have more success using the stump as a lever to pry the roots/dirt/rocks right off the ledge in one go. Just a thought. I look forward to getting on the finished project.

[aaronhart]

thanks for the leverage idea. be sweet to have that hole shelf cleaned off with another bolt. im down for climbing sunday if anyone is interested.

[*Chris*]

Went to Cedar Pt. today. Forecast said high of 0 degrees but it felt more like +10.

I can commiserate with the idea that the Chica Bonita tree was a bit of a rope gobbler... but the stump should be trimmed flush. If you clean it up Aaron you'll be doing a service. The high stump on Walk the Plank should go as well.

What I'd really like to know... is who removed the rap hangers I'd installed on Scrambled Signal at the 2nd quarry? I went there today to give the route one final consideration to be bolted and scope other lines. I arrived to find two bare studs with hangers gone. I considered that it could just be dipshit SJ kids... but they'd have had to brought a wrench with them... and if that were the case why weren't all the other accessible anchors taken as well? That could only leave climbers and/or the landowner... and I really hope it wasn't the latter. So WTF?

[cory]

who removed the rap hangers I'd installed on Scrambled Signal at the 2nd quarry?

Interesting... And the hangers on the other two were left in place? I do hope it wasn't the landowner, although any alternative isn't much better. I'm not sure of the date when I was last there, but it was this past fall (short, sunny, cool day), and the hangers were there then. Too bad you didn't finish it off, Dom told me you were considering bolting it and we are both looking forward to the lead. At least you had good conditions to climb instead.

[Dom]

It has to be climbers that took them...Landowners would've probably bashed the studs as well to send a message?

Stealing biners is low. Stealing a full on anchor is a low-blow. I encourage the person who did this to return them to their rightful place.

[aaronhart]

sad to here about the missing of an anchor. so wehre is this new 2nd quarry. is it amazing as cedar point. got some more red points to do at cedar point so i would like to have some more warm weather come soon. i have around 60 days of skiing this year so get outa here snow and warm up the rock.

[cory]

Get the guidebook from beta-source or linked through my blog. Chris is referring to what's described as Snowfence. There's also a bunch of potential at Fred Penner's Place.

[aaronhart]

i chopped the rest of the stump off on walk the plank. looks good wacked away at some more roots aswell. rock was dry. great to be climbing again.

[Dom]

i chopped the rest of the stump off on walk the plank. looks good wacked away at some more roots aswell. rock was dry. great to be climbing again.

Thanks Aaron!

[aaronhart]

was to cedar point today, i cleared the stupid branches that were in the way of the two bolt anchor on schmuchs unlimted. tripped hard walking to set up the top rope. could be dangerous to fall there so i cleaned it up a little bit. i hope my woodsy backround is accepted by the climbing community.

[cory]

i cleared the stupid branches that were in the way of the two bolt anchor on schmuchs unlimted.

I hope their increased visibility doesn't make them a victim to being pilfered, like these were:

What I'd really like to know... is who removed the rap hangers I'd installed on Scrambled Signal at the 2nd quarry? I went there today to give the route one final consideration to be bolted and scope other lines. I arrived to find two bare studs with hangers gone. I considered that it could just be dipshit SJ kids... but they'd have had to brought a wrench with them... and if that were the case why weren't all the other accessible anchors taken as well? That could only leave climbers and/or the landowner... and I really hope it wasn't the latter. So WTF?

[Shawn B]

Yes since the bolts are now VERY visible and are easily accessed from the top I might suggest checking them for vandalism before committing to them. Local partying kids might think they are playing a joke loosening the bolts. They probably would have been better left less visible in this particular case.

[*Chris*]

I'm wondering if in this specific case it might make sense to pound on the head of the studs with a wall hammer... causing the metal to mushroom, and making it impossible (or at least difficult) for the nuts to be taken off.

My only hesitation would be that the hammer-blows might have negative consequences on an already expanded bolt sleeve in this soft rock. Would an engineer care to comment on this?

Glue-in style eye-bolts, which are popular at Kamouraska, would have been ideal in retrospect.

[Fred]

I think putting some epoxy or something over the exposed threads would be a better idea. Hamering to point of mushroming the head could lower the strength of the bolt.

[cory]

Agreed, *chris*, glue-ins would have been good. I have no experience with placing them, therefore was hesitant to try since there is more room for error with installation. Also, removal/upgrading of glue-ins is hard and messy. I think it's worth investigating.

Good idea, Fred. Next dry day when I have some time, I will goop up the exposed threads a bit with epoxy. I'll try to put enough to make removal tough but not impossible, so that future upgrades are possible. Too much glue could also seal moisture into the hole, leading to freeze-thaw breakdown of the rock. Best to leave some breathing room.

It's amazing how much trouble one naive person can cause when they're intentions are good, but experience and practicality are lacking.

[Adam]

lock-tite?

[Fred]

You can get epoxy that is not goopy and can be mixed with your hands like playdough. Check with Marty and Dom.

[Dom]

Glue-in style eye-bolts, which are popular at Kamouraska, would have been ideal in retrospect.

A few years from now I will rebolt all of my routes at Cedar point with Glue-ins. It is my understanding that a single piece of hardware is the most corrosion resistant.(expansion bolts have multiple pieces) The SS bolts I have installed there 2 years ago are already showing signs of surface rust. The saline air definitely accelerates the corrosion in Cedar point. Much more than anywhere else in NB. On top of that the rock in there is soft Limestone so Glue-ins would be ideal.

That being said, unless you know what you're doing, stay away from the fixe glue-ins that they sell at MEC or eyebolts they sell at hardware stores. These need to be recessed with enough glue but not too much!. I've seen scary looking glue-ins in Rumney where these weren't recessed.
The ideal solution IMO are P-shape glue-ins such as these. http://www.appalachianclimbingschool.com/Bolt_Products.htm
They don't need to be recessed and are one single piece with no welds.

[chossmonkey]

Glue-in style eye-bolts, which are popular at Kamouraska, would have been ideal in retrospect.

A few years from now I will rebolt all of my routes at Cedar point with Glue-ins. It is my understanding that a single piece of hardware is the most corrosion resistant.(expansion bolts have multiple pieces) The SS bolts I have installed there 2 years ago are already showing signs of surface rust. The saline air definitely accelerates the corrosion in Cedar point. Much more than anywhere else in NB. On top of that the rock in there is soft Limestone so Glue-ins would be ideal.

That being said, unless you know what you're doing, stay away from the fixe glue-ins that they sell at MEC or eyebolts they sell at hardware stores. These need to be recessed with enough glue but not too much!. I've seen scary looking glue-ins in Rumney where these weren't recessed.
The ideal solution IMO are P-shape glue-ins such as these. http://www.appalachianclimbingschool.com/Bolt_Products.htm
They don't need to be recessed and are one single piece with no welds.

Hey Dom, good on you for deciding to use glue-ins. If you can get them the Bolt Products glue-ins are probably best. Recessing is a PITA. Because of there design they are more forgiving with a bad placement and are supposedly more removable than other versions when they need to be replaced. I wish MEC carried them. If you can get the 316SS

Make sure to get a hand pump for blowing out the holes. Blowing out with your mouth and a tube doesn't cut it. Cleaning the hole is by far the most laborious and time consuming part.

The stainless bolts you put in, did you pound them in with a steel or SS hammer. I have heard of carbon steel hammers contaminating the SS and leaving small chunks of iron on the surface that rust. That said I have a bunch of routes with SS bolts that are less than 5 years old that are starting to look like they are plated steel and they were pounded in with my pin hammer which is supposed to be SS. I have also put in a bunch of bolts in a far less corrosive environment just using a claw hammer and most of them have small specks of rust which is probably contamination.

If you need tips on placing glue-ins PM me.

[Dom]

The stainless bolts you put in, did you pound them in with a steel or SS hammer. I have heard of carbon steel hammers contaminating the SS and leaving small chunks of iron on the surface that rust. That said I have a bunch of routes with SS bolts that are less than 5 years old that are starting to look like they are plated steel and they were pounded in with my pin hammer which is supposed to be SS. I have also put in a bunch of bolts in a far less corrosive environment just using a claw hammer and most of them have small specks of rust which is probably contamination.

If you need tips on placing glue-ins PM me.

I'm pretty sure it was just a regular Eastwing hammer. Chipping the head of the bolts definitely brings surface rust. In Cedar point though, I'm pretty sure most of my bolts aren't chipped as that rock is so soft. There is no need to pound them in. I just have to tap them in and they go right in. In other areas where there is granite, sometimes you really have to pound in the bolt and chipping the head does happen unintentionnally.
That being said though, the surface rust that has started to spring up in Cedar point is on the SS hangers and even on the SS fixe ring more than on the SS bolts. It's not a cause for concern yet as it's very minimal but does show signs of corrosion after only a year or two.
On the other hand, some SS bolts/hangers installed in the late 90's at the Attic in Cochrane lane look brand new.

This is why I have plans to eventually replace the expansion bolts I've installed in Cedar point to Glue-ins. Because it is just a matter of time before the Stainless steel is compromised in that marine environment.

I'm wondering what adhesive you use? I know Hilti makes a good product but I'd have to get the expensive special gun. I've read about Red Head A7 being a very good product as well and cheaper. The only downside is it cures really fast so having a bunch of extra nozzles is a necessity.
Another thing is, I've read to stay away from capsule type resin as it is made for threaded rods and won't work well with climbing glue-ins.
Also, do you know a canadian distributor of resin that sells it at a reasonable price? I can find awesome prices online on red head A7 but they're all American sellers and I don't want to get stuck with paying duty...Might have to smuggle some in after a climbing trip to the US...

[chossmonkey]

I use Hilti RE-500. It gives you a long working time which is nice, but its red and takes forever to fade unless it gets all day sun and then it still takes a long time. It can also be used in damp holes. The limestone around here often comes out more like paste than dust when drilling. Its also the strongest epoxy available, which I really want when using the Fixe bolts since they don't have much keying surface.

We picked up a demo glue gun for maybe around half price. That might be from what the Canadian dealer was quoting my friend. Bec was working in the States for a little while and was able to get it there. The glue was cheaper there too. For us its actually closer as well.

The HY-150 isn't as strong as the RE-500, but it is still supposed to be okay to use for climbing. It sets wicked fast though and the holes need to be dry. It is a much more agreeable color than the RE-500 and can be used well below freezing.

With the Tit/Bolt products bolts you don't need to use the best glue to get really good results. If you haven't visited the main site you should. Tons of good info on working with glue-ins. http://www.bolt-products.com/AboutBoltProducts.htm

Sika makes a good epoxy that can be used in a regular high quality caulking gun. I think the glue available in Canada has a shorter working time compared with the stuff you can get in the States. Perhaps they changed the formula but I thought I found info on the website too. The big downside with that stuff is that by the time you get the mixer and the filler tube attached and in the gun its probably getting close to 3 feet long. The Hilti gun with mixer is about 2.5 feet which is long enough when dangling on a rope. In the States you can buy it at the Depot. Just watch the expiration date as it can sit on the shelf a long time there and go bad. It think the price not including the gun works out to about the same price per hole. Hilti might be a little less expensive even.

If you can, get all your holes drilled and ropes fixed before gluing. One tube of Hilti glue will do at least 25 recessed Fixe glue-ins. It might be closer to 30 depending on waste. If you only do a few holes you will waste a lot of glue inside the mixers. Same if you use a fast setting glue and can't pump it out fast enough.

[austinconrad]

Wow these look like they'd be alot easier on draws! The regular Fixe ones seem to scratch the biners quite a bit. The site also says they can be used like rap rings since they're smooth and you can run the rope through them without causing damage. Cool