New Routes

[Dom]

the slabs are fun too. I found the ones graded 5.7 harder than the ones graded 5.8.

Great work and thanks to all who contributed.

Hehe you just need more slab practice.

[Leehammer]

Yeah it could be. Even though I did the routes easiest to hardest, they seem to get progressively easier. Probably because I was figuring out how to climb them.

I should be ready for Sleeping Beauty now.

[Dom]

Yeah it could be. Even though I did the routes easiest to hardest, they seem to get progressively easier. Probably because I was figuring out how to climb them.

I should be ready for Sleeping Beauty now.

hehe yep, the move on Sleeping beauty is definitely slabby!
Glad you liked them. There is also a 5.6 that should be ready soon. It's the bolted one with black hangers.

[Adam]

I vote that the next edition drops the weird FA/FFA thing.

Who cares if someone made it up a route on TR, really. So I think we should just put FA: Joe Blow 2011.09.06 in the description and the FA will be for the first free ascent like everywhere else in the world.
If a route had been and aid climb for a long time before it became a free climb (i.e. Vagina/J'ai volé ta blonde) then we can put it in the description. ''Had been previously aid climbed by John Doe in 1886''

Eliminating the FA/FFA thing will also put to rest the: ''It's been climbed before...''
If it hasn't seen a ground-up ascent sans fall than it's never been climb period.

I understand the FA/FFA thing with big walls, but NB has crags, no big walls.

Anyways this is my opinion, not gospel.

I think there is value in knowing this info. Not to say who climbed in better style, but to show the history of the climb to those down the road. "Oh, this climb wasn't led till ten years after it was FA'd - wonder why?!". We'd lose a bit of the aura around some climbs if there is less known by the public about the routes we are so intimate with. After all we are making love to the mountain.

[Dom]

I vote that the next edition drops the weird FA/FFA thing.

Who cares if someone made it up a route on TR, really. So I think we should just put FA: Joe Blow 2011.09.06 in the description and the FA will be for the first free ascent like everywhere else in the world.
If a route had been and aid climb for a long time before it became a free climb (i.e. Vagina/J'ai volé ta blonde) then we can put it in the description. ''Had been previously aid climbed by John Doe in 1886''

Eliminating the FA/FFA thing will also put to rest the: ''It's been climbed before...''
If it hasn't seen a ground-up ascent sans fall than it's never been climb period.

I understand the FA/FFA thing with big walls, but NB has crags, no big walls.

Anyways this is my opinion, not gospel.

I think there is value in knowing this info. Not to say who climbed in better style, but to show the history of the climb to those down the road. "Oh, this climb wasn't led till ten years after it was FA'd - wonder why?!". We'd lose a bit of the aura around some climbs if there is less known by the public about the routes we are so intimate with. After all we are making love to the mountain.

Perhaps you're right. I've only really entered the NB climbing scene about 2 years ago and thought it was strange that there was FA and FFA. Most NB climbers seem to like that system so I guess it's worth keeping.

The only thing I hate about that is I can go to CL, set up my TR on this super obscure dirty crap pile piece of cliff (route xyz). Then I get to name it and grade it. The whole thing took me 3 minutes. Meanwhile someone comes along after and bolts, digs, scrubs, sweats, spends two days prepping the damn thing and tries hard not to fall to get the FFA on route xyz and doesn't even get naming rights. Explain how that is logical?

[Dom]

Adam you may want to check out this thread. http://www.climbeasterncanada.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6895. The same issues were discussed here.

I know I just said an extreme example but it's just to raise how weird the fa/ffa-namings rights thing goes. Most people if they TR something obscure won't even report it. (i.e. Idoprophen had seen marginal TR ascents). No one bothered to report them and I'm glad. Fred is the one who spent a lot of time scrubbing the thing (while Greg H. bolted the anchor and to me that should be mentioned in the description.)

On the other hand if you climb a ground-up aid route, I think the subsequent FFAist might show respect to the FA and keep the name. To me it's more respect than ethics or style... (I.e. if Orpheus was to go free at 5.16, the FFAist should show respect and keep the name but it shouldn't be written in stone)

[john]

who cares who names it?

That is why squeeze jobs happen because people want to names more routes. I would rather see the one obvious quality line get done and variants or squeezed in routes left for TR.

Recording the TR or FA is a way of saying there is a line here which might hold your interest, has been climbed before but for various reasons was not lead. Its often better this way I think.

[*Chris*]

... On the other hand if you climb a ground-up aid route, I think the subsequent FFAist might show respect to the FA and keep the name. To me it's more respect than ethics or style... (I.e. if Orpheus was to go free at 5.16, the FFAist should show respect and keep the name but it shouldn't be written in stone)

Hmmm... well I think a new name was proposed for the line formerly known as Cerebus since it was thought to be the FA, we (Erick) put a significant amount of effort in cleaning/bolting, and since the new name was a respectful play on the old name. So I guess it passes your test. The lore has it that Orpheus was eventually torn apart by the Maenads so I guess the FFA will have grounds to change it someday.

p.s. Since you seem to be interested... I think Orpheus will go free long before Odin will. Not even in the same league. All that's needed for Orpheus is a few more bolts through the roof. Odin has 2 sections that I would presume will be nearly impassible if following the route proper.

[Dom]

Recording the TR or FA is a way of saying there is a line here which might hold your interest, has been climbed before but for various reasons was not lead. Its often better this way I think.

It's a valid point.

My climbing background is not from NB so I just found it odd when I moved back here and saw FA/FFA. I've explained my arguments against and most people have countered with good arguments and it helps me better understand this obscure system hehe.

When I updated the ''Dalles de Saint-Anselme'' in the new route sticky, I just put FA alone. Someone is so attached to the FA/FFA thing that he/she took the time to add all the FFA's to the routes...hehe Now that is commitment to the cause!

Hmmm... well I think a new name was proposed for the line formerly known as Cerebus since it was thought to be the FA, we (Erick) put a significant amount of effort in cleaning/bolting, and since the new name was a respectful play on the old name. So I guess it passes your test. The lore has it that Orpheus was eventually torn apart by the Maenads so I guess the FFA will have grounds to change it someday.

Haha my ''test'' doesn't matter and I'd say that nobody will argue against the fact that you guys renamed it, the line had never been climbed before!!!

p.s. Since you seem to be interested... I think Orpheus will go free long before Odin will. Not even in the same league. All that's needed for Orpheus is a few more bolts through the roof. Odin has 2 sections that I would presume will be nearly impassible if following the route proper.

Cool, Where do you start the route? I was there recently and what appears to be the start looks like ultra choss?

Anyways, that enough CEC for me today, happy Halloween yall!

[Fred]

Over the years I have completed many of the old abandonned TR projects. I've usualy kept the names, not out of respect, but rather to avoid confusion in re-naming of routes. I think one who completes a route ground-up should be entitled to change the name if he/she so wishes. It's true that sometimes routes are left as TR only because they are not worthy of ground-up projects. However, 98% of the time they are simply abandonned. Good examples of these, only to name a few, are: Mr. Torpedo, Hole in My Pocket, Smithers, Hitchhiker. Those of you who have climbed these routes will agree that they are some of the best in Welsford yet they were left unfinished before I came along. Were they worthy of ground-up FFA? Absolutely!

Also, in remaining consistent with the latest edition and all previous editions of the guidebook, I did add the FA/FFA to all the Dales routes. That's how we do it here. As I mentionned in my latest edition of the guidebook, it's how it has always been here in New Brunswick, why change it now.