closed project, how long is too long?

[Dom]

It has occurred to me that there are closed projects out there that have been closed for a while now.
How long do you think the grace period should be for someone who has a closed project?

Red tags ethics vary throughout the world so I posted this specific poll in the New Brunswick section to know what people think of red-tags/closed projects in New Brunswick.

If you don't see an option that suits you, please choose the closest one and post up what you think is adequate.

[*Chris*]

A length of time not greater than what it takes for Jon C. to send his line in the Upper Tier.

[Fred]

I think we should follow what is written in the guidebook... 6 weeks.

[GKelly]

I agree with Fred. If its a 5.13 or harder perhaps it's reasonable to extend that but that just complicates things. Lets face it. If you have a sub 5.12 project that has been sitting for over a year people have been on it and surely sent it. They may not have mentioned it but we all know it's true.

[theriault]

If its a 5.13 or harder perhaps it's reasonable to extend that but that just complicates things. Lets face it. If you have a sub 5.12 project

Should anything be diffrent for a strong climber....? I don't get this one.... might be my french translation lol!

[PeterA]

I'd say 6 weeks max. Closed projects are lame

-PJ

[Dom]

I like 6 months because it takes a lot of time, dedication and hard work to scrub a new route. 6 weeks may be too short to send it after you put all the work in it because of different factors. (rainy summer, injury, kids, etc.). 6 months give ample time and after that it should be absorbed de facto by the climbing community and become an open project.

It's kinda like if you own a piece of land and don't pay your taxes. If there is no mortgage or lien on the property, then it will become crown land. The climbing community is the ''Crown'' here.

That being said, I like 6 weeks and I never had a closed project for more than 6 weeks.

[STeveA]

If you cannot finish a project in 6 weeks, and you do not actually own the land, then it should be fair game for others to finish it. The initial guidelines also only allowed 1 project per person at a time. This results in increased competition, and incentive for people to finish projects. These guidelines were effective when there was lots of new route potential, and now that new routes are getting harder to find, it does not make sense to let people hog the limited real estate because they were first to put a tag on it. If projects take too long people simply climb them and don't mention it.

There are several recent projects that have been climbed before the developer has red pointed them simply because people are taking too long. The ascents go unreported for a while, but the knowledge is usually floating around. 6 weeks is plenty of time in my opinion.

[*Chris*]

Personally... I think the whole discussion is a bit retarded.

It really only matters if having the coveted 'FA' is important to you. Personally, I don't climb for the sake of bagging an FA. It seems to me that this question is all about whether the route developer get's any recognition or mention if he/she doesn't manage to get the FA.

Dom... would your question change at all if the route developer was credited as part of a route's description? As you've mentioned before, you don't see any value in mentioning the first ascentionist of a line unless he/she get's it all free on lead. That's fine with me... but personally I think the route developer deserves mention (especially if they put in the time to develop a line for others that they ultimately can't send).

Cheers.

[Dom]

Personally... I think the whole discussion is a bit retarded.


Dom... would your question change at all if the route developer was credited as part of a route's description? As you've mentioned before, you don't see any value in mentioning the first ascentionist of a line unless he/she get's it all free on lead. That's fine with me... but personally I think the route developer deserves mention (especially if they put in the time to develop a line for others that they ultimately can't send).

I think the discussion is valid. Like I said some routes (More than one) have been lying dormant for a while.

Chris to answer your question Yes I beleive that when it comes to cragging, FA should be what we in NB we consider FFA. That is my opinion and I'm not going to ''occupy'' Welsford if it doesn't change .

I firmly beleive that if someone put the time and effort to develop a route, either by scrubbing, by aiding ground up, bolting, etc. than they should be mentioned in the route description for sure. (i.e. Cleaned and developed by Joe Blow). So I agree with you Chris.
On the other hand, I don't believe that setting up a TR on a tree, climbing the route and coming back down is worthy of recognition or gives someone naming rights.
Again this is simply my opinion, and I'm not going to occupy Wall street, huh I mean Welsford over it.

The initial guidelines also only allowed 1 project per person at a time. This results in increased competition, and incentive for people to finish projects. These guidelines were effective when there was lots of new route potential, and now that new routes are getting harder to find, it does not make sense to let people hog the limited real estate because they were first to put a tag on it. If projects take too long people simply climb them and don't mention it.

To me that is how it should be, except for the last part where people should mention it. If it's fair game why not mention it?

[*Chris*]

I think we're pretty much on the same page Dom. The discussion is valid. Poor choice of words on my behalf. I just don't really feel the drive to bag FA's. But I understand that it's important to others.

[Fred]

For the record, Marty and I have a project at Mt Dough which I'm sure is the fire for this discussion.

Yes, originaly the project may have been tagged by placing a bolt anchor and simply rapping the line. However, in recent weeks I have spent much time cleaning this line and it is almost ready for bolting. So based on your mention of amount of effort put into it we would respectfully request that you give us some more grace period to finish the project.

Fred

[Dom]

For the record, Marty and I have a project at Mt Dough which I'm sure is the fire for this discussion.

Yes, originaly the project may have been tagged by placing a bolt anchor and simply rapping the line. However, in recent weeks I have spent much time cleaning this line and it is almost ready for bolting. So based on your mention of amount of effort put into it we would respectfully request that you give us some more grace period to finish the project.

You are wrong Fred, I have noticed 3 routes that have been lying dormant for a while now, not 1. What sparked my interest is I onsighted a route ground-up with Greg on Sunday at CL. I just realized after that it was a project. This is not the Jon C. route at Upper Tier.

So the fire of this discussion is 1. What do we do with these 3 routes. Open projects?
and 2. How do we treat closed projects in general so that this imbroglio doesn't happen again. Kinda like a community moral legislation. This is the council people- VOTE! hehe

[Shawn B]

6 weeks has been the established standard for as long as I can remember. Don't see any need to alter.

Also the established standard for new routes is that a TR ascent counts as a FA (rock only....not so as per established standard for ice climbs). Doesn't matter if I agree with that or not (thats a whole different topic). So I'm assuming if something has been cleaned and/or bolted then it has seen a clean TR ascent (I'm pretty sure if Jon C. bolted that UT route that he climbed it clean on TR). So FA (along with naming rights) goes to that person. If it sits as a closed project not having seen a FFA for 6 weeks, it is now open and whomever climbs it ground up gets the FFA (no new naming rights). Protection decisions (ie. bolts) should also remain with the original FA. This will keep a stronger climber from coming in and doing the FFA of an easier route and then saying they don't want any bolts added.

Remember a lot of people don't go on this site or won't post here and their opinion should count. So don't take a poll or discussion here as gospel for all climbers.

[Nihoa]

i dont understand the incurable burning desire to get on these handful of closed projects when there isnt really a shortage of other stuff to get on. unless someone is sitting on a project that is going to be the best route ever established and sending it will complete you as a person, leave it to them to finish it.

[john]

what are the projects in question?

[GKelly]

Should anything be diffrent for a strong climber....? I don't get this one.... might be my french translation lol!

I'm attempting to quote here so I apologise if this doesn't work.
Mr. Theriault. I'm not making exceptions for different strength climbers at all. I was just thinking too much and should have left it at thought rather than text.

[STeveA]

Saying that a top roped ascent doesn't count as a first ascent is like saying that someone is still a virgin if they used a condom during sex. I believe the FTR, FA and FFA are all valid and should be recorded.

[Greg]

I see no problem with maintaining the 6 week rule but I think there could be exceptions to the rule. As has already been pointed out it is not always practical or possible to have a route developed to completion (including the send) in less than 6 weeks. In most cases new routing is a pretty laborious undertaking. If someone declares a project then takes the initiative to scope out, garden, trundle, scrub, bolt and work a route I think it is fair that the person be afforded some time to get the FFA. If it falls within 6 weeks – great. If it takes a bit longer I don’t see why some grace couldn’t be given provided that they are legitimately trying for the FFA and not just squating.

Nobody likes a squatter but no one likes a thief either. I've read stories about Henry Barber going around and stealing other people's projects when he was in his prime. To me that is just bad style and makes him look like a douche.

[Fred]

provided that they are legitimately trying for the FFA and not just squating

I think that's the key point right there. Simply tagging a route then walking away (squatting) is not enough.

[GKelly]

Nice analogy Steve:)

[coryhal]

6 weeks is plenty of time, if you havent climbed the line by then you (A) dont care or (B) bolted somthing that is way over your limit.

and just because you toproped a line doesnt make it your route, it has to be properly cleaned and bolted before it can be called a closed project, and your 6 weeks starts after that point, like after the first bolt goes in or somthing.

i thought this closed project thing only applied to sport/mixed routes? a trad line is always up for grabs so you better climbe her fast.

[theriault]

Read this article in Rock and Ice this morning and had to post it! These are NOT my word or the way I am thinking about this situation and I am not pointing the finger at anyone, I just thought it was funny and somewhat fitting in this little mess! lol

The Problem:
REDTAGGING (V10)
The Beta: Have you ever rented a room from a homeowner? Your landlord wants your money... but he doesn't actually want you to live there. It's a paradox that creates an overall sucky situation for all. This is what redtagging is like.

The first ascentionist doesn't want to be the guy who redtags his routes, but he also doesn't want someone else to send the route first. He wants to be "cool" and let other people climb on his project ... but he doesn't actually want that. It creates an uncomfortable situation.

Further, the people who say redtagging is B.S. and that it holds back climbing from progressing are usually the same people who don't put up routes themselves.

The Solution: If you want to do tha first ascent, openly and proudly redtag your route. You get one year (365 days) to send it before it opens. Also, you can't "redtag" a boulder problem - not necessarily because brushing and cleaning a small piece of rock doesn't entitle ownership, but because you literally can't place a red tag on a boulder problem. Finally, if you become a climber who people respect - a quality that must be earned, not asked for - then you don't need redtag in the first place. And if you're the type of climber who snakes someone's project just to get attention and "win" a first ascent - especially if you haven't climbed any other routes in the area - then you're just a douche.

Tuesday Night Bouldering
by Andrew Bisharat
Rock and Ice
Issue 197

[Dom]

Read this article in Rock and Ice this morning and had to post it! These are NOT my word or the way I am thinking about this situation and I am not pointing the finger at anyone, I just thought it was funny and somewhat fitting in this little mess! lol

The Problem:
REDTAGGING (V10)
The Beta: Have you ever rented a room from a homeowner? Your landlord wants your money... but he doesn't actually want you to live there. It's a paradox that creates an overall sucky situation for all. This is what redtagging is like.

The first ascentionist doesn't want to be the guy who redtags his routes, but he also doesn't want someone else to send the route first. He wants to be "cool" and let other people climb on his project ... but he doesn't actually want that. It creates an uncomfortable situation.

Further, the people who say redtagging is B.S. and that it holds back climbing from progressing are usually the same people who don't put up routes themselves.

The Solution: If you want to do tha first ascent, openly and proudly redtag your route. You get one year (365 days) to send it before it opens. Also, you can't "redtag" a boulder problem - not necessarily because brushing and cleaning a small piece of rock doesn't entitle ownership, but because you literally can't place a red tag on a boulder problem. Finally, if you become a climber who people respect - a quality that must be earned, not asked for - then you don't need redtag in the first place. And if you're the type of climber who snakes someone's project just to get attention and "win" a first ascent - especially if you haven't climbed any other routes in the area - then you're just a douche.

Tuesday Night Bouldering
by Andrew Bisharat
Rock and Ice
Issue 197

Red tags ethics vary throughout the world so I posted this specific poll in the New Brunswick section to know what people think of red-tags/closed projects in New Brunswick.

[theriault]

Red tags ethics vary throughout the world so I posted this specific poll in the New Brunswick section to know what people think of red-tags/closed projects in New Brunswick

Read this article in Rock and Ice this morning and had to post it! These are NOT my word or the way I am thinking about this situation and I am not pointing the finger at anyone, I just thought it was funny and somewhat fitting in this little mess! lol

[Andrew]

Some reasons it may take more than 6 weeks for a sport/mixed route to be fully cleaned, FA & FFA'd:

- Weather
- Lack of partners for when the weather is right and you & a partner is available at the same time
- Not everyone has access to a cordless concrete rotary hammer drill
- Injury

Sometimes all of the above

As far as a trad route goes, if one notices a recently cleaned strip of rock where only dense growth lived before and it's not listed in the new routes list, it likely hasn't seen an FFA by the FA.

I think most people around here are pretty generous about giving people loads of time to finish a project and at least try for their FFA. Also, likely most people aren't so hard up for routes that they need to usurp another's route.


Anyone who has put up a new route knows it can be a major undertaking, esp. if your anal-retentive about meticulously cleaning every bit of crap off the route.

Some routes go up and aren't cleaned. Not cleaned means to me that it's not done.

Rock ON!

[Matt Peck]

6 weeks is plenty of time, if you havent climbed the line by then you (A) dont care or (B) bolted somthing that is way over your limit.

and just because you toproped a line doesnt make it your route, it has to be properly cleaned and bolted before it can be called a closed project, and your 6 weeks starts after that point, like after the first bolt goes in or somthing.

i thought this closed project thing only applied to sport/mixed routes? a trad line is always up for grabs so you better climbe her fast.

Wow. That's pretty black and white. Heaven forbid life doesn't actually let you go climbing whenever you want.

[PeterA]

6 weeks is plenty of time, if you havent climbed the line by then you (A) dont care or (B) bolted somthing that is way over your limit.

and just because you toproped a line doesnt make it your route, it has to be properly cleaned and bolted before it can be called a closed project, and your 6 weeks starts after that point, like after the first bolt goes in or somthing.

i thought this closed project thing only applied to sport/mixed routes? a trad line is always up for grabs so you better climbe her fast.

Wow. That's pretty black and white. Heaven forbid life doesn't actually let you go climbing whenever you want.

Seems like we need a formula to incorporate the life variable. the purpose of this formula would be to determine how long everybody else needs to wait while the developer's life is diverted from climbing. Variables accounted for should include (but are not limited to) yearly income, % of that yearly income allotted to climbing, availability of transport, how busy the partners lives are, partners yearly income, % alotted, their transport. We would also have to incorporate the chouinard constant, which relates the amount of partners one has to their availability at any given time.

After running the figures, 6 weeks is a pretty good estimate.

-PJ

[*Chris*]

... the chouinard constant...

-PJ

Ha. I love it.

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that 6 weeks is a reasonable rule-of-thumb. I doubt that a single instance exists in Welsford's history where a FA has been 'poached' 42 days after being 'tagged'. Again... I don't tend to care about FA's and I'm not a prolific developer... so I really don't get bent out of shape either way.