TAO enters the climbing scene.

[seanT]

MEC is a member owned co operative NOT a profit driven business like Trail Shop or TAO get your facts straight. That being said, of the 2 profit driven business's in town TAO has shown since day 1 that they are receptive to climbers needs. You really need to get out more Ben or mabye not....
WORD!

[ben smith]

Sean: check wholesale price of sportive solutions vs MEC price. Where is that money going? someone is getting paid. Why do they have shoes for bumblies not solutions in Halifax if there is no profit motive. I can guarantee you that if TAO is stocking climbing gear that doesn't sell it will be gone and not restocked. I'm not hating on TAO and I'm psyched for Organic pads and new Boreals if they are good. But my experience is that they suck and my advice is that they are a crap brand to stock first with a terrible reputation.

[Fred]

It's my understanding that MEC profits are mostly recycled through:

1. grants for land acquisition, nature preservation, environmental research, etc
2. offering low priced MEC brand gear (by charging normal price on name brands)
3. dividens are paid back to main stock holders (I've received three checks since I've been a member)

Yes, they are not-for-profit.

[ben smith]

How much do the company officers get paid? That is a personal profit. Not for actual shareholders like a for profit corporation but someone is taking home a pay cheque and they take home a bigger one if the customer, sorry "shareholder" pays more for a pair of sportivas. They have to be paid as much as they would at a for profit company. Take a look at the MEC salary scheme sometime.

[seanT]

Seriously dude ....you need to get out...go for a hike.. ride your bike...rent Porkys
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084522/
its getting a little sad.
Sean

[Fred]

someone is taking home a pay cheque

You do know how not-for-profit works right? It's not a charity where people volunteer time for free.

[ben smith]

What I don't understand is how there is some real world difference between MEC (sells shoes for higher than wholesale price, difference goes mainly into salaries for employees.) and Trail shop or TAO (sells shoes for higher than wholesale price difference goes into salaries for employees+ dividends and increase in share price for shareholders). In both cases the price you pay is set by someone who makes their living off the profit margins.

Fred: Even charities pay salaries in most cases. usually this is their biggest expense and in some cases a scam. I am just pointing out that "not for profit" is garbage. Someone always makes a profit.

Sean: I'm stuck at work with time between experiments, arguing online is like a little 5 minute release of the bubbling vitriol I'm filled with because I sit in a dark closet 16 hours a day doing something thats probably worthless. Don't try to take that from me.

[Fred]

I agree that they make their living off the profit margins (they have to) but are the salaries comparable to other jobs in their respective geographic locations? And are the salaries representative of the job function and responsibilities? I'm sure it's a high profile job to be at the top of that organization and merrits a worthy pay check. When compared to East coast I'm sure the salaries appear huge but in BC it might only get you a 500sqft condo.

But like I indicated, I think alot of their money goes into the MEC brand clothing and gear as well as grants. I'm speculating a bit here though.

Just a thought.

[Eager]

MEC uses their money to get bigger and better, crushing the competition I've seen it coast to coast they are the WalMart of the outdoor industry. REI (Rental Equipment Incorporated) with their no questions asked return policy does the same in the US. I mean if you were going to drop $600 on a pair of mountaineering boots at REI with a lifetime return policy, or $700 at the Mom and Pop down the road with no return policy, where would you go? The only places that compete with REI in the US are Online shops like backcountry.com that cut out the sales reps. Someone in the maritimes should start an online climbing store that way you can provide the equipment climbers want at good prices and get it to people quickly, be exclusive to the atlantic provinces.

I think it's great that TAO is going to bring in some stuff but once everyone buys a bouldering pad then what? I mean go to the gym and look at what people are wearing on their feet? Why go on a whim that Boreal might pan out, what if they suck and then George at Tao says that nobody bought the shoes after we went to all the trouble to bring them in. Why not bring in shoes they know will sell then try Boreal? At least you have access to reasonably cheap gear. Here in NZ I pay $299 for Miuras, I think I'll wait till I get back to the US.

[seanT]

Got a sneak peek at the Boreals at TAO today and they are SWEETTTT. 3 different styles of slipper. Super sticky rubber. VERY nice quality product indeed. I will be at TAO on sat representing GZ and the climbing community in general. There will also be a 1 week promotion at TAO starting Oct 1. If you buy a pair of shoes or a new organic pad you will be able to purchasse a GZ punch pass($100) value..for $75. THAT is a sweet deal for any one needing new shoes/pad and climbing at Ground Zero.
WORDDDDDD
Sean

[stoneseeker]

I think it's great that TAO is going to bring in some stuff but once everyone buys a bouldering pad then what? I mean go to the gym and look at what people are wearing on their feet? Why go on a whim that Boreal might pan out, what if they suck and then George at Tao says that nobody bought the shoes after we went to all the trouble to bring them in.

I agree that its tough for small business to compete against big companies. Especially in niche markets like climbing.
However, if you go to a gym or crag in an area near where Boreal is sold, you do see them on people's feet. In the massive gym in Germany I was in, a lot of climbers were wearing Boreal, also Red Chili seemed far more popular there too. As well as in the UK, where climbers prefer the stiffer mid-sole on Boreal shoes for dime edges. A big part of the reason you don't see people wearing Boreal here is because we don't have access to them... and also apparently because Ben and Scoot hate them. (but whatever, I hate the Solutions with a passion, so I'm just as opinionated about shoes)
I think it was an understandable move not to bring in a bunch of shoes that MEC already carries, although I would love to see some Pythons or Blackwings here, it's not easy to just pull in one or two shoes from various companies.
George is aware it'll be slow moving at first, but with time, hopefully he can bring in the best shoes the most people want even if it is, (ugh) Solutions.

Either way, hopefully we'll have a better chance at getting the gear we want with Tao then we currently do with MEC.
thats what I'm stoked on.
---and buying my first Organic pad!

[Fred]

IMO climbing shoes have much to do with a being a popularity contest. Anyone who has climbed for a number of years has probably noticed the trends. For a while everyone is wearing 5.10 Mocs, then they all switch to 5.10 Anasazi Velcros, then Muiras, and now Solutions. It's a general observation but you get my point. They're are a bit like dandelions, one person gets them in their yard and the next thing you know everyone's yard has em. In the end, all climbing shoes are pretty decent and it depends on what shoe "fits".

[pulldown]

I was down at TAO on the weekend to check out the new shoes and i liked what i saw. 3 styles of slippers. All with very sticky rubber. Organic crash pads and chalk bags.

If you are in the the market for shoes or a pad, take a few minutes to check out what TAO has to offer. You will not be dissapointed.

Todd

[seanT]

Just got home from my first sesh in my new Boreal Tribals and they kick freakin ass! Sticky....sensitive...perfect thankYOU TAO.
SeanT

[the kydd]

Sean T and Pulldown,

Are you two on the payroll at TAO?

I find it suspicious that you both post with-in 11 minutes of each other.... Same computer? Post-climbing safety meeting?

Whatever it is I've really enjoyed reading this thread! I laughed a lot.

You guys should all keep bickering and fighting. Its raining in Squamish, and I'm depressed. I need more of the best medicine.

[seanT]

O man if you liked this thread wait untill you see the next big thread of controversy....stay tuned. its gonna be big!

[granite_grrl]

Got a sneak peek at the Boreals at TAO today and they are SWEETTTT. 3 different styles of slipper. Super sticky rubber. VERY nice quality product indeed. I will be at TAO on sat representing GZ and the climbing community in general. There will also be a 1 week promotion at TAO starting Oct 1. If you buy a pair of shoes or a new organic pad you will be able to purchasse a GZ punch pass($100) value..for $75. THAT is a sweet deal for any one needing new shoes/pad and climbing at Ground Zero.
WORDDDDDD
Sean

Hey Sean, you know what slippers they're carrying? I OMG *heart* my Boreal Cruxes, so sensitive and sexy, but I don't think they'd survive a resole and come back to me as the same shoe.

Oh, and FWIW I noticed a huge difference in the rubber between the Lasers (which I stopped using because I found the rubber so bad) and my Cruxes....though I don't think them in the gym.

[seanT]

The original lasers(black and pink) had super thin really senstive and sticky rubber, then they changed things up for a few years and the rubber blew chunks..probably the ones you had... so far the new shoes ive been climbing in(the Tribals) are awsome super sticky rubber and really sensitive.

[chameleon]

I OMG *heart* my Boreal Cruxes, so sensitive and sexy

Boreal Cruxes.......for her pleasure.

[seanT]

You dirty old man.

[jipstyle]

MEC
* Member owned Co-op
* Executive board elected by members every 3 years
* Distributes profits to support environmental efforts, improving access to the outdoors
* Publishes annual accountability reports, including full financial disclosure
* Sources product using strong ethical and environmental guidelines
* Support both members and employees; entry-level wage averages over 120% of minimum wage and up to 140%
* "In 2010, our CEO's compensation (base salary) compared to average employee compensation (hourly staff wages) was 9.2:1. In Canada, the 100 best paid CEOs in Canada earned 155 times as much as the average Canadian worker, including bonuses (2010 report by Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives)."

Rather than hating on one of the few ethical business operating in our country, please go Occupy a park or something.

[Eager]

Oh,

While maybe some comments were a bit OTT regarding MEC, I think it's fair to say it's size alone makes the biggest impact to local businesses who are trying to compete with MEC (maybe I'm wrong as I'm not a local business owner). I don't know about everyone else but when I go to an outdoor store I'm only interested in a few things, mostly technical equipment, stuff that is top of the line gonna make me send harder or save my ass. The fact that MEC does all these great things like give people good paying jobs and helping Nepalese kids go to school is fantastic and is honorable, but lets cut to the chase it's an outdoor store. That's why everyone pays $5 bucks to shop there, because they sell gear.
Just because it's a Co-op doesn't mean it's not trying to expand or bring in more money (who pays for the development of their swanky new buildings and expansion?) the shareholder (member), and the markup on equipment. Oh we forget about the $5 everyone paid to shop there, multiply that by lets say a million or 2 million then invest for the 15 years I've been a member. Would you shop at the Trail Shop or Tao if they charged you $5 to purchase something in their store with the chance that if they made a lot of money they would give you a % at the end of the year? Maybe then they would bring in what folks want. On top of this it is evident that in Halifax MEC isn't listening to it's members (shareholder) or the climbing community by bringing in the products they would like to see in store. What I don't understand is why if you live in Halifax you are often forced to order away for products, when they carry them in other MEC stores out west. I mean why should people pay to shop in a store, when you have to order for anything you want in the store anyway.

Personally I think lack of visual in store exposure to new high end equipment and product can have an effect on the development of a sport in a specific area (Nova Scotia). If the equipment isn't readily available it is less likely anyone will purchase it, or get into the sport. In Nova Scotia (at least a few years ago) this would hold true for Ice climbing/mountaineering equipment, whitewater kayaking equipment, and some climbing equipment. Nova Scotia has amazing opportunities for Ice climbing and potentially mixed route development, World class bouldering NS is awesome! (I was just living in Portland Oregon where there are 0 boulders and there is a huge number boulderers and two of the largest bouldering specific gyms in the US), Great Whitewater (Playboating and Creeking) Kayaking. Yet much of the new equipment for these sports is hard to get in store from MEC in Halifax, instead you might as well just stay home and order online, maybe things have changed? Why am I a Coop member (shareholder)? Apparently to pay the power bill.

I admit I don't live in Halifax now and I get a check from MEC which is nice, but from a few earlier posts it sounds like it's still the same old same old in Halifax MEC. In the end, I'm going to shop where ever you get 1. Immediate convenience and the product at a reasonable price 2. The cheapest you can get the product.

As far as occupying parks, didn't it just snow in Halifax? I guess you could check MEC online and see how many models of 4 season tents they have in stock in Halifax:) Otherwise it could be a few cold wet nights before it gets shipped in.

[jipstyle]

I think it's fair to say it's size alone makes the biggest impact to local businesses who are trying to compete with MEC

Sure. Though, as you point out, size isn't enough for the local MEC to compete since they don't carry what you want.
Their size helps them get a lower wholesale cost, I'm sure. Economies of scale work in their favour.

That's why everyone pays $5 bucks to shop there, because they sell gear.

I'm not a proponent of the 'local business is always best' school of thought, though I suppose that is a discussion for a different thread. MEC employs locally and uses a substantial portion of their profits to help causes in which I am interested. That is the reason they get my money all other thing being equal or close to equal. If Valhalla Pure has a 50% sale on the cams I want to buy, they'll get my money. If VP offers the cam for the same price or a small difference, then MEC get my money.

It is a choice that we all make with our money ... next to voting, where we spend our money is the most powerful thing we can do in this society.

Just because it's a Co-op doesn't mean it's not trying to expand or bring in more money (who pays for the development of their swanky new buildings and expansion?) the shareholder (member), and the markup on equipment.

Yes. And? That expansion brought you a shop in Halifax. Would you rather not have that option? Do you think that the people who're eagerly awaiting the new store in Barrie, ON are upset that it is opening? I think you're being disingenuous when you say that MEC is using its profits to expand its business. Of course it is. Valhalla Pure did the same thing and has quite a few stores now ... are they exempt from your criticism because they started as a small local store?

Oh we forget about the $5 everyone paid to shop there, multiply that by lets say a million or 2 million then invest for the 15 years I've been a member.

You pay $5 for a share. Every year that MEC makes sufficient profit, you get more shares. Eventually, MEC buys those shares back from you. I've received at least 10x my initial investment in share buybacks since I bought my first share in MEC. If you've been a member for 15 years, I'm willing to bet that you've received more than $5 back, yes?

Let's not forget that when we bought our shares (15 years ago for you, about 20 for me), $5 was worth a bit more. It was more than a hour's wage, according to the Ontario government at the time. The price hasn't changed in decades .. that should tell you something as well.

Would you shop at the Trail Shop or Tao if they charged you $5 to purchase something in their store with the chance that if they made a lot of money they would give you a % at the end of the year?

Maybe, though as I said earlier, I support the Co-op for reasons other than the occasional share redemption. When a cheque arrives in the mail, it is usually less than $100 .. play money, rather than something that affects my buying decisions.

On top of this it is evident that in Halifax MEC isn't listening to it's members (shareholder) or the climbing community by bringing in the products they would like to see in store.

That is a valid criticism. If they don't sell what you want, obviously your business is going to go elsewhere. Someone who wants Boreal shoes is out of luck at MEC. *shrug* Do you expect one store to always have everything you want?

What I don't understand is why if you live in Halifax you are often forced to order away for products, when they carry them in other MEC stores out west. I mean why should people pay to shop in a store, when you have to order for anything you want in the store anyway.

Seriously? Look at the populations of the cities to which you are comparing Halifax. Now look at the number of climbers. There are more people sleeping off a binge in the Chief campground in Squamish on a summer weekday than there are total climbers in NS.

Now look at the size of the store in Halifax. It is tiny. Where are they going to keep all this gear you want?

Now think about how often you buy a #2 cam or a set of 'draws. This gear lasts for years and, unlike shoes, tends to sit in inventory until a new trad climber is born or someone's draws are too worn out.

The store at MEC just doesn't have the inventory turn-over to carry what you need on demand ... but they will order it to the store at no charge to you. I had a crashpad shipped from Vancouver to Halifax when I needed one. Sure, i had to wait a week ... #firstworldproblems ... but I got my pad and didn't have to pay shipping across the country.

As far as occupying parks, didn't it just snow in Halifax? I guess you could check MEC online and see how many models of 4 season tents they have in stock in Halifax:) Otherwise it could be a few cold wet nights before it gets shipped in.

Are you implying that the Occupy people aren't capable of long-ranging thinking and planning ahead of time?