Climbing partner

[darren]

Hi I'm a relative novice climber with some experience in top rope and a little bit of anchor building. I'm looking for a climbing partner (male or female, doesn't matter to me) of comparable experience to climb with (indoor or outdoor) this summer.

[climberwannabe]

Hi man, I am of about the same experience... where do you live? What gear do you have?

Steve

[kate]

hello darren,

a great way to meet climbing partners is at the gym. wouldn't you prefer to learn in a controlled environment that your potential new climbing partner is someone who doesn't pay attention to safety and simply enjoys spraying about their latest send? there is a friendly group of regulars who climb at Ground Zero Climbing Gym in the evenings during the week. in May, the NSBL continues on the first Mondya of the month, and in June, the Monday Night Bouldering Series takes over the Monday night slot for the summer months. check out our website for more details. good luck with your search for a partner, and happy climbing!

kate

[darren]

yes I ran into two partners whose belay habits made me somewhat leery.. and one also would build anchors with only a single locking 'biner instead of two non-locking reversed and opposed 'biners.. so yes someone who wants to start indoors first is preferred.

[The Mitt]

Darren,
Using one locking biner for a top rope anchor is not necessarily a bad thing. Its what you and your climbing partner are secure with. Depending on the situation I will use either or. Having 2 non-locking opposed and opposite do not have a significant benefit over one locked biner.

Judging someone from your self admitted inexperience is probably as dangerous as hooking up with a partner on this chat group and trusting them implicitly. My advice to you is empower yourself with information, ask around the community if the person you are going climbing with is safe, take a course, and more important ask questions of the people who you are climbing with.

Just my 2 cents
Mitt
The world of climbing is not always black and white.

[climberwannabe]

Yeah, and my 2 cents is that you dont climb with Mitt... unless you can 'rise above' it... ask any of the stoners and you'll know what I am talking about! hehe, why dont you come out with us sometime? There is usually what, 4-6 ppl with TONS of years under their belts... climbing and otherwise. I was new this year, I started ice climbing with some of the same ppl and I have learned alot. Now I am WAY better than the ppl I climb with, so they must have tought me well. Plus pick up a copy of Freedom of the Hills... read it cover to cover and you will have a good basis of knowledge to start with. You can get it at a good price on amazon.ca.

Steve

Hey can you limerick?

[darren]

Well I did a lot of reading on climbing long before I decided to try it out and my two cents is I like to have redunancy in building my anchor.. as close to an unbreakable solid ring as possible in my opinion. That wasn't my only issue with my other climbing partners. They're belaying habits (such as removing the brake hand from the rope) made me a lot nervous so I stopped climbing with them. Anyway 'wannabe if you let me know when you plan to go I wouldn't mind going. I've got a bit of gear (pretty new 50 m rope, some active and passive trad gear) and my own transportation.

[peter]

Come climb outside. The Stoners go out every weekend. We're safe.

You can climb in the gym in the winter, or when the bugs get too bad.

Why waste nice weather indoors, as I am sure your mother has told you.

[mitchleblanc]

Darren,
Using one locking biner for a top rope anchor is not necessarily a bad thing. It's what you and your climbing partner are secure with. Depending on the situation I will use either or. Having 2 non-locking opposed and opposite do not have a significant benefit over one locked biner.

...

Just my 2 cents

Mitt

The world of climbing is not always black and white.

No, but backups and no backups IS black and white. I don't know if you were just saying that to make a point that you shouldn't trust anyone's advice, but if you don't think that 2 biners is better than one, then ... well, I would recommend not climbing with you either!

Backup *everything*!

Or just boulder.

[The Mitt]

I have set up anchors with one locking biner. Mostly when bringing my second up, there is still redundancy as I am at the top as well. Although uncomfortable if that biner were to break (something that I have not even heard of in a climbing environment) then the next anchor point would be my ATC which is on another completely independent system. This would be SERENE (Solid, Efficient, Redundant, Equalized, and Non-Extending) this is also considered a minimalist system.

So the point I was trying to make (and once again not very well) is that just reading a book or taking a course is not all the information you need. Nothing can take the place of going out with someone who has experience and learning on the rock. If you see an anchor that is suspect ask why the person did what he/she did. There may be something to be learned from either end.

Mitt

[cooper]

hey darren i am always in the gym and am looking for a lead partner i climb at ground zero and am there about three times a week
since tuesday and thursday are lead nites it would be good to go in then
i just need a couple of days notice so e-mail me and we can hook up
i have been climbing for abour 6 months and have the lead course through G.Z.
any one else looking for a partner hit me up to

[climberwannabe]

I might be up for some leading at GZ this thursday night. I have the lead cert there as well. My friend Alex wants to goto mec to get shoes, and we'll prob hit the gym after. I'll follow up on this soon with a definite plan.

Steve out

[mike]

Mitch- I gotta go with Mitt on this one...

In my opinion, 1 locking biner is 'backed up' There's the biner's structural integrety- usually rated for 25KN or more- which is WAY more than any possible force in a top rope situation- including one with too much slack in the belay. Fall factor ---1- somewhere less than 700lbs- max rough estimate. 25kN= 5500lb WLL. The backup- the lock on the biner.

I would much rather have a good solid anchor (more than one piece- as I'm sure everyone will agree (I like to equalize 3 as a min)) with a single locking biner to run the top rope through than having 2 opposed non-lockers. Non lockers can get themselves undone- 1/4 turn lockers have a fancy way of getting out of their ropes as well.

Non- locking biners in anchors are for people who can't afford screw gate lockers. The whole opposing gates and all that other crap is just to make the best of an inherently bad situation.

Perhaps- for the timid- 2 screw gate locking biners???? or one locker and a non-locker (for back up).

2 non-lockers... once again... absolute crap.

This is an opinion (an informed opinion non-the less) and, as this is climbing, there will be differences in opinion.

Mike

[tracstarr]

no rope, no anchors, no biners, just a pad

[The Mitt]

This is exactly what I am getting at. There is no black and white, just informed and uninformed. I see Mitch's point (a biner is not saving anyone’s life on my rack) but there is a comfort level and that is something that has to be worked out between the climber and his/her partner. If someone wants me to put 3 biners on the anchor and I have them I'll do it if it makes them feel more secure.

Mitt
P.S I have never been criticized for my anchors being to thin, although I have been made fun of for them being overly fat.

"So Sean did you think that those 2 30 foot trees were going to fall or did ya just want to see how many anchors you could make? How necessary was the third?" Quote from Steve P at Scapper.

[tracstarr]

rather em fat than thin myself. when i do get on a rope. i usually use 2 locking myself and 3 anchors when i can.

[mike]

.....Don't feget yer spotters

[Isomer]

"So Sean did you think that those 2 30 foot trees were going to fall or did ya just want to see how many anchors you could make? How necessary was the third?" Quote from Steve P at Scapper.

Check out this Squamish accident http://alpineclub-edm.org/accidents/accident.asp?id=207 for an account of why it is good to back up single tree belays. A lot smaller than Mitt's trees in question, but still highlights why one should always backup.

[mike]

It's not my spelling that's bad- more like my proof reading.

Another point to all of this... while I can see the point of using 2 locking biners- I do it too if I've got lots to spare-public piece of mind, not mine- I've never seen anyone top roping on twin ropes.

Point is: A rope is more likely to break (due to sharp edges and friction) than an anchor biner. And as soon as you have only one thing in a system then that becomes a single- non-backed up system.

Putting 2 biners into a single rope system is technically better- but there are better ways to increase security in an already incredibly reliable and time proven way of doing things.

Mainly- Twin ropes. Steel anchor biners (45kN and more likely to bend than break under extreme force). Well managed belaying (less force on the anchor during wipeouts)

[mike]

Yeah- good post Isomer.

You gotta learn to learn from other people mistakes- cause you can't possibly make 'em all yourself.

[darren]

I have set up anchors with one locking biner. Mostly when bringing my second up, there is still redundancy as I am at the top as well. Although uncomfortable if that biner were to break (something that I have not even heard of in a climbing environment) then the next anchor point would be my ATC which is on another completely independent system. This would be SERENE (Solid, Efficient, Redundant, Equalized, and Non-Extending) this is also considered a minimalist system.

So the point I was trying to make (and once again not very well) is that just reading a book or taking a course is not all the information you need. Nothing can take the place of going out with someone who has experience and learning on the rock. If you see an anchor that is suspect ask why the person did what he/she did. There may be something to be learned from either end.

Mitt

Well even in my limited climbing experience, I have climbed with some very experienced climbers (including my course instructors) and they either used a single solid steel ring or two non-locking 'biners with gates reversed and opposed. Just seems to make some common sense since it is YOUR life hanging from that anchor. Kinda like buying a used rope.. you don't know what kind of abuse that rope has taken in its lifetime.

[martha]

It all depends on the scenario.

Sometimes you'll get to your 3rd or 4th anchor on a multi pitch and only have one locking biner to make your anchor with because of what gear you used along the way or what was left with your second on the previous anchor. You deal with what you have. In my opinion 1 locking is perfectly safe, but I always use 2 if I have them on me just to be redundant. or I'll use one locking and one regular biner, opposite and opposed. When you are just top ropping, you should have enough gear to do it with two anyways so it is a non issue.

Don't forget though, the one peice of gear we rely on the most is NOT redundant..and that is the rope! (unless you are using doubles -duh)

[mike]

Yeah...
and watch out for rings that have been welded together instead of injection moulded.

Welds can and do break.

[mike]

wait a minute- injection moulding is for plastics. Maybe it's cast- hmmm- that's cast iron though.

Whatever- welded rings are not reliable- use the ones with no welds... or maillons

[Fred]

a weld is stronger than the ring itself if done correctly

[mike]

Yes Fred- approx 70,000psi depending on the particular rod that was used in the process and the base metal.

The positioning required to complete this particular weld and size of the ring makes it very difficult to do correctly. Very likely to be a cold weld with both porosity and slag inclusion.

You'd be surprised how many broken welds there are in the world of welding.

[dcentral]

My bike was locked to a bike rack at the climbing gym here. It got backed over by some ass in an SUV that just drove off. The front end of my biked was smushed. The rack was ripped out of the ground from its expansion bolts and the heavy duty rack broke cleanly right at the weld.

[mike]

Lack of fusion due to a cold weld.

It's not the weld material that's weak- it is, in fact, stronger than the base metal.

It's the interface between the two that has potential to be the weak link.

It's a common misunderstanding.

[mathieu]

A few thoughts/opinions/rants popped in my head as I was reading this thread.

To play devil's advocate: If you folks suggest that I use 2 biners for the Top anchor, then if I belay from the top with my reverso should I put 2 locking in the anchor point on the reverso?

Suggestion for anchors: If you set up a TR anchor may I suggest passing the rope through one locking and another biner non locking that is gates opposed.

Another suggestion: The best piece of equipment I have for setting up anchors on 2 bolt station. A cordalette 1.8 to 2 metre long tied with a fisherman (double or more of course), its long enought that you can clip both bolts and do a nice overhand figure eight.

When I started setting up TR I would use one sling rapped around one tree and use 2 biners (usually lockings), after climbing with different people I realized that was an extremely bad habit. So that's a suggestion to anyone starting, climb with different people and ask to set up some stations, and have someone help/critique/show you the ropes. I don't necessarily mean someone more experienced, but who is willing to learn and has an idea of basic principles.

I'm usually guilty of having overly redundant gear anchors. Althought i have been seen doing a sport rappel(2 quickdraw rappel). I used to hate to even see those but someone pointed out that there is a back up since the rope is clipped on every draw on the way up.

wow that's a typical rant for me, totally uncoherant and no real susbstance, I apologize if it kills this thread

[mitchleblanc]

To play devil's advocate: If you folks suggest that I use 2 biners for the Top anchor, then if I belay from the top with my reverso should I put 2 locking in the anchor point on the reverso?

The point (obviously I know you know this, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate Advocate) is that you *always* backup whenever possible.

As stated above, the rope can't be backed up, and neither can your little reverso. Whatever that is.

And no Cara, one biner for an anchor isn't "perfectly safe", not by a long shot. I'd kick your ass if you belayed me on an anchor with one biner and if you end up with one biner on an anchor, you made your mistake earlier in the day.. That's why we have these discussions, so that doesn't happen!