Grades on certain routes

[Dom]

Hi, Well the reason I liked MP so much was the input on grades (Consensus). I do agree that for access purposes it's probably not a good idea to expand the Welsford section of MP. So I'm gonna use this website to post what I feel some routes' grades are IMO.
I'm not implying that these should be changed, I'm simply ranting about grades. Feel free to disagree; we live in a Free country!

I'll use the numbers in the book.

11. Ride a cock Horse 5.7 G (not 5.4)
13. Miramichi Trout hunter 5.7 P.G. (not 5.8 G)
23 Gollum's cave 5.7 G (not 5.4)
26 Ian's Overhang 5.10b G (not 5.8 )
30. Reindeer Land 5.4 G (not 5.5) I know, I know what's the difference between 5.4 and 5.5...
66. Wise Crack 5.10- G (not 5.10d)
67. Cheekbone Corner Variation 1 5.9- G (not 5.7G)
69. Strata Factor Direct 5.11+ (2nd pitch) (not 5.10+)
101. Tit for Tat 5.11+ (not 5.11a)
122. Reno Dyhedro 5.11c (not 5.11a)
126. Human Erazer direct 5.11a P.G. (not 5.10c R) (Only TR'ed it so it might actually feel R on lead but looked like PG at the ''runout'' crux
137. 5.8 for Style 5.9 G (not 5.8 )
140.1 Trundling flakes 5.10a P.G. (not 5.10) (I see 5.10 as beeing 5.10b/c according to old school grades)
141. About a Rope 5.9 G (not 5.7 P.G.)
148. Reincarnation 5.9 G (not 5.10a)
150. Montezum's Revenge 5.12a (not 5.11c)
156. Pharaoh Fawcet 5.10a G (not 5.9)
174. Lichen cream cheese 5.9+ G (not 5.8 )
175. Dykes on Bikes 5.11c (not 5.10+) (Maybe I didn't use the right holds??)
178. The Dyke route 5.9 P.G. (not 5.6)
189. Whiter shade of pale 5.9 G (not 5.6) ( Overhang in a 5.6? yaa righttt )
193. A never ending story 5.11b (not 5.11c)
200. Waterwalk 5.8 G (not 5.8 P.G.)
206. Some enchanted evening 5.7 G (not 5.3)
216. Telefunken 5.10c G. (not 5.10a)
223. Catholic girls 5.10d P.G. (not 5.10b)
244. Poche 5.11d (not 5.11a)
245. Quiet V4 or 5.12a (not 5.11a)
248. The Talamasca 5.10a (not 5.9)
250. Steal your face 5.9+ (not 5.8+)
252. Aventure pédestre 5.8+ G (not 5.7)
253. Be still my bleeding heart 5.11 (not 5.11a)
267. Olickitolot 5.10+ (not 5.10b) Start was damn hard for me!
270.1 Community service 5.9+ (not 5.8 )
273. Le miel est plus doux que le sang 5.11d (not 5.11c or 5.12a)
279. Most unprecedented 5.10c (not 5.10a) (dyno in a 5.10a?? suree e!)
280 D-Day 5.10c (not 5.10a)
291. Trouble with Lichen 5.12a (not 5.11c)

Sunnyside
336 Thunder 5.11d (not 5.11b)
339. Radioactive Rod 5.11a (not 5.11b)
341. H-Bomb 5.9 G (not 5.8 )
345.2 Stairway to Heaven 5.8 (not 5.7)
352. Black Dwarf 5.9 (not 5.10c)

Again this is just ranting, If you're one of the FFA of these routes don't feel threatened, these grades are based on my opinion. Grading is not scientific!
Some people think Chica bonita at Cedar point is 5.8 but when I graded it I felt convinced it was more of a 5.7...

So what do you guys and girls feel about certain grades in Welsford?

[Fred]

You're upgrading alot of my routes!! Are you calling me a sandbagger?! LOL

I agree with most of those in your list Dom and for the most part we all know about them. In the end, I think it's good to have some variation on grades. It's good for the ego in both ways, up or down.

[anderfo]

I have only climbed ten of those, but I agree in your opinion on them. In addition I have these, without route numbers, sorry...but anyway:

Cochrane Lane:
Steve's Overhang 5.8 (not 5.6)
Mr Clean 5.5 G (not 5.6 G)

Sunnyside:
Gamma Burst 5.9 (not 5.
Celestial Motion 5.10a (not 5.10c)
Quantum Theory 5.10c (not 5.10b)


Now, take a vacation from climbing, go skiing!

[Greg]

I agree with most of your assessments of the grades for these climbs especially About A Rope and Whiter Shade. The interesting thing about Whiter Shade is that it is way harder than Light Fandango but they share the same grade, are side by side and were put up at roughly the same time.

I don’t agree with your grade of Ian’s Overhang though.......I would say it is either accurate at 5.8 or maybe a 5.9

I think it is a good idea to share thoughts on old school grades or sand bagged routes. It will give new leaders a heads up on what they are getting themselves in for. It’s also interesting that some climbs did get re-graded though, like Waterfall Layback which was originally a 5.8. I would like to hear the story on that one. Snot was originally a 5.3 but was changed to 5.8 after a tree was removed.

Glad you mentioned routes on the left side of the cliff too. I doubt that Striated gets much traffic these days and there are some nice lines over there like Trout Hunter and J’Ai Vole Ta Blonde. Everyone should climb Cock Horse at least once in their career – what a unique and fun route.

A few I would add to the list are:

Ejaculator 5.8 not 5.7

The Spider’s Web 5.10b not 5.9

Goo Ni Goo Goo 5.7 not 5.6

Up, Up and Away 5.6 not 5.4

Salt and Pepper 5.9 not 5.7

Dynamic Duo 5.8 not 5.9

Sparky Start 5.8 not 5.6

Rhythm Stick 5.8 not 5.7

[Andrew]

11. Ride a cock Horse 5.7 G (not 5.4)
I agree that it is harder than 5.4; however, 5.6 G is my opinion.

13. Miramichi Trout hunter 5.7 P.G. (not 5.8 G)
I led ^ this year. I would agree it's not a full-on 5.8 and the protection isn't as good as you might think on first glance.

23 Gollum's cave 5.7 G (not 5.4)
I've TR'd this, using the back cave wall for support but still felt it more like 5.6.

26 Ian's Overhang 5.10b G (not 5.8 )
TR'd this last year. It took a very good number of attempts to get through the overhang. I still felt it was no more than 5.9.

30. Reindeer Land 5.4 G (not 5.5) I know, I know what's the difference between 5.4 and 5.5...
My thought was that it's 5.5 due to the exposure when stepping over the cave opening, but yeah, it's not too difficult.

101. Tit for Tat 5.11+ (not 5.11a)
TR'd this last season. It was my 1st or second 5.11 and the last 5 feet, i went around to the left cause I couldn't go direct. So I have to agree due to the top section, it's harder than 5.11a.

137. 5.8 for Style 5.9 G (not 5.8 )
Agree. I've found this route harder than most 5.8's I've climbed, TR or Lead.

141. About a Rope 5.9 G (not 5.7 P.G.)
First pitch is 5.7, second pitch is harder if you climb it correctly. I'd say 5.8.

148. Reincarnation 5.9 G (not 5.10a)
** If you use just your hands on the main horizontal and traverse far enough right and go up, it's plenty hard, but if you go up just right of the really easy flakes, ya, maybe 5.9.

150. Montezum's Revenge 5.12a (not 5.11c)
I did this 3 times on TR for the first time this year. It is very difficult and sequence is key. If it really is 5.12a, then I'm gonna have to change the tattoo on my shoulder from 5.11c climber to 5.12a climber. ROTFL.

156. Pharaoh Fawcet 5.10a G (not 5.9)
This is definitely a difficult route with the getting horizontal at times. Dunno if it warranty 5.10a, or maybe just 5.9+

178. The Dyke route 5.9 P.G. (not 5.6)
I did the route on second back in 2001. It was a little damp. I didn't find it anywhere near 5.9. Has something changed?

216. Telefunken 5.10c G. (not 5.10a)
Gotta agree that the two overhanging sections are pretty difficult. More than any 5.10a I've done.

223. Catholic girls 5.10d P.G. (not 5.10b)
Agree that it's PG and one or two spots that felt harder than 10b.

245. Quiet V4 or 5.12a (not 5.11a)
Agree that it's harder than 11a.

248. The Talamasca 5.10a (not 5.9)
Agree.

250. Steal your face 5.9+ (not 5.8+)
Agree

267. Olickitolot 5.10+ (not 5.10b) Start was damn hard for me!
The start is very hard.

279. Most unprecedented 5.10c (not 5.10a) (dyno in a 5.10a?? suree e!)
280 D-Day 5.10c (not 5.10a)
These two did seem harder than their grade implies.

Sunnyside

339. Radioactive Rod 5.11a (not 5.11b)
Don't steal my thunder... I'd like to believe I did a 5.11b.

345.2 Stairway to Heaven 5.8 (not 5.7)
Why do you think this is harder than 5.7? I thought it was a very good example of a full 5.7. There is a spot at about 10-15 feet that is tricky, but every 5.7 route has some tricky spot.

352. Black Dwarf 5.9 (not 5.10c)
The holds are quite big on this route. When going for the last 5-10 feet when you are moving around to the right of the bolt towards the anchor, I've always felt it was very difficult; however, the lower section is definitely less than 5.10c.


Mental Floss 5.6 R - I have led this 2 or 3 times, all w/o falling. I do feel it's more of a PG rating. The grade is correct if you know how to do the route; otherwise it could turn out to feel like a 5.7, 5.8.

Pizza and Jack In The Box - Their grades seem reversed. I felt Pizza was harder than JITB, esp. on lead.

Tut's Tomb 5.9 - Very stiff 5.9. I felt it was in the 5.10 range.

Mr. Clean 5.6 - Someone mentioned this should be a 5.5. I disagree. It's 5.6. Also, you could smack into some ledges and that makes it a bit scary for a new leader on that grade.

Up Up & Away 5.4 - I Agree it should be 5.6.

Space Cadet 5.6 (gollum's cave, left) - new route... i felt it was more like a 5.7.

Go Ni Go Go - I've also felt that it was a tad harder than 5.6.

[coryhal]

i do agree with a few of your grades, but feel most (95 percent) of our grades are accurate. And compare with the other trad areas in north america. (j-tree, yosemite, bugs, squamish, new hampshire, gunks....) actually were probably a little soft. it will be interesting to see what you think of our bald hill grades, as they were graded in referance to our climbing experences in these locations.

[Dom]

it will be interesting to see what you think of our bald hill grades, as they were graded in referance to our climbing experences in these locations.

I climbed at Bald cloudbear 2 or 3 times and yes I felt the grades were consistently Stiff. It's consistent though so when I hop on a route there I know what I'm getting into...and that I will prob get my a$$ kicked...

[*Chris*]

I guess I need a standard to apply to each grade. Then it becomes a question of sorting where any particular route falls in between standard lines. For me... lines that provide the benchmark for the grades are:

5.4 - It's a way of life
5.5 - Reindeerland, Upper Refuse (Cathedral)
5.6 - Mr. Clean, Fandango-P1
5.7 - Snakepeel, Springfield, Salt N' Pepper
5.8 - Waterwalk, Inferno-P2 (Whitehorse)
5.9 - Warm & Sultry, Astroboy D., Rockstar
5.10a - Pink Panther, Mercy Buckets
5.10b - Quantum Theory, Sticky Fingers,
5.10c - Drytoolers, Sleeping Beauty

beyond that... I'm not the expert

So... based on that I'd go with:

5.8 For Style - 5.9
Dynamic Duo - 5.8
Lichen Cream Cheese - 5.9+
Waterfall Layback - 5.9+
Telefunken - 5.10d
Odin - at least A2+
About a Rope - 5.8
All Hail - 5.10c
Fai Toi Pa Mal - 5.8
Covalence - 5.9

I've also watched several strong new climbers shut down on Pass the Moonshine this year. They subsequently cruised harder climbs. Gumby Roof is also radical for 5.10a.

[Nihoa]

that made my day.

I climbed at Bald cloudbear 2 or 3 times ...

[martha]

Dom, stop being such a girl. Sheesh....



23 Gollum's cave 5.6 G (not 5.4)

101. Tit for Tat 5.11b? (not 5.11a)

137. 5.8 for Style 5.9 G (not 5.8 ) Maybe in 'today's grades.. but honestly, I think it is just a good old school grade...
141. About a Rope 5.98 G (not 5.7 P.G.) Definately not a 5.9... compare it to Warm and Sultry for example.. but *maybe* a 5.8 at the crux *maybe*
148. Reincarnation 5.9 G (not 5.10a) - agreed
150. Montezum's Revenge 5.12a (not 5.11c)- agreed
156. Pharaoh Fawcet 5.10a G (not 5.9) -*maybe*... it is stiff.

189. Whiter shade of pale 5.7? G (not 5.6) ( Overhang in a 5.6? yaa righttt ) - NOT a 5.9. 5.7 maybe.. the MOVES aren't that hard.. it is just the Headgame we play that makes is so much FUN.

223. Catholic girls 5.10a - The grade is fine... just a tricky route
244. Poche 5.11d (not 5.11a) - I dunno.. I've done this route and I don't think its that hard.. maybe 5.11b/c?
245. Quiet V4 or 5.12a (not 5.11a) - agreed... this thing is hard!

252. Aventure pédestre 5.8+ G (not 5.7) - naw... it is old school.. 5.7 is fine.
253. Be still my bleeding heart 5.11 (not 5.11a)- oh I love this.. and yeah, 5.11 is good

291. Trouble with Lichen 5.12a (not 5.11c) -.. no, this is easier than Farewell to arms, and is no harder than Montezumas.. so 5.11c/d is good.

Sunnyside

345.2 Stairway to Heaven 5.8 (not 5.7) - no.. I think this is a 5.7... compare it to Pass the Moonshine and its crux... no harder..
352. Black Dwarf 5.9 (not 5.10c) - yeah.. agreed.


Oh man, how I wish I were climbing on this beautiful weekend instead of posting about it!

[STeveA]

I feel that most of the climbs listed were correctly graded for the times when they were put up. However, climbing styles have changed and I think most climbers today are more comfortable with face climbs than they are with crack climbs. Also, the grades in many areas have definately become 'softer' so it is hard to compare grades from one area to the next.

Gollum's Cave is a good example. It was always considered 5.5 with Reindeerland being 5.4. Gollum's cave is certainly no harder than 5.5, but you have to be able to Chimney climb. Reindeerland is certainly no harder than 5.4, however if you are leading it with only half a dozen nuts on your rack, wearing a pair of EBs, the step across the top of the chimney is quite exciting.

Waterfall Layback was known to be harder than 5.8, however we felt it was important to keep some of the local tradition going, and thus all guidebooks, until the latest, left it at 5.8 with a comment about how hard it was for the grade. It was originally protected using hexes, so with todays protection maybe it should be downgraded to 5.8.

When Fires (the first sticky rubber shoes) first came out, there was a lot of discussion about changing grades on existing climbs because the shoes made them easier. I think the opposite may be happening today with climbing gyms. Climbers have different skill sets from climbing indoors. They are certainly stronger, but with a different skill set and climbing style. Some of the older climbs are challenging todays climbers because they require techniques that are not as popular.


I think that it is a good idea to re-evaluate the grades periodically, and if it is possible to come to a concensus about a new grade we should apply it. One of the main reasons for grades is to give a climber an idea of what they are getting themselves into beforehand. If todays climbers have different skill sets then maybe we should be applying different grades. How about Welsford becoming a trend setter in North America. Lets adopt the Australian system of grading where you start at 1 and go up. We could regrade all the climbs with this new system. We would need to come up with some solid reference climbs that everyone agrees on for a grade. I propose that we set up a general meeting of all NB climbers, bring lots of beer, and start the discussion.

[Holly Reid]

Mine too!

that made my day.

I climbed at Bald cloudbear 2 or 3 times ...

[GKelly]

Well said Steve. I agree with all of Dom's grades (for the routes I have climbed). But I think you've made a really great point about styles changing etc.

Greg

[STeveA]

Fred

How about starting a new section strictly for climbs. Each climb can have a poll, and when we have a general concensus for a grade the next guidebook author could use the info.

[Fred]

lol

nah!! In my opinion having a variation on grades adds to the fun. Our campsite conversations would be borring if we didn't get spanked by the occasional sandbagged 5.8.

[Adam]

Lets adopt the Australian system of grading where you start at 1 and go up. We could regrade all the climbs with this new system. We would need to come up with some solid reference climbs that everyone agrees on for a grade. I propose that we set up a general meeting of all NB climbers, bring lots of beer, and start the discussion.

hah i'm in!

[cory]

Grades don't matter, but protection quality, fall characteristics, and rock integrity do matter. I say the next edition should leave out all difficulty grades and be replaced by a dollar value. This number would be the sum of the cost of all pro required, tape (2 cents/joint/finger if it's crimpy, up to 3 bucks if it's a fist crack), new underwear (if you're likely to soil the pair you start out with), and medical bills (if injury is likely).

[Holly Reid]

Grades don't matter, but protection quality, fall characteristics, and rock integrity do matter. I say the next edition should leave out all difficulty grades and be replaced by a dollar value. This number would be the sum of the cost of all pro required, tape (2 cents/joint/finger if it's crimpy, up to 3 bucks if it's a fist crack), new underwear (if you're likely to soil the pair you start out with), and medical bills (if injury is likely).

hahahahahahaha

[motanb]

I think Blow Job Slabs is not 5.8 but more like 5.3