New Routes

[Andrew]

Thank you for that, Chris. Sounds like it's a go-ahead for bolts where needed including and anchor.

Andrew:
1. Whatever discussions happen about bolts tend to be about lead bolts. Anchors are different. Install it.
2. This is Sunnyside. Lead protection bolts seem to be acceptable.
3. You are the FA. As such it's your call. Even the most staunch champions of traditional theory would be forced to respect that.

Dom is correct. A PG gear route will go unclimbed at Sunnyside. The pure and obvious G rated cracks are seldom climbed as it is. I've been on them this year and I found essentially the same thing... dirt, lichen, and choss. Either way... it's your call.

[*Chris*]

With so many new areas and new routes, I suggest something like MoutainProject.com 's route database might make a lot of sense. It would certainly relieve the strain on NB's librarian as people would be able to submit their own routes. Would also be a resource for future authors of printed guidebooks. Something to consider as an alternative. I'd be willing to help set up something like that either there or elsewhere.

Regardless, thanks for all your efforts Fred.

I noticed today that somebody has started a section on Mountain Project for NB. This person only entered about 8 lines and was probably here on a trip but nevertheless, I still think it might be the way to go. Not necessarily MP.com... but online somewhere.

[Fred]

I think it's a great idea. My only concern is if the site shuts down you lose your info... DrTopo used to be a great spot for route info but it shut down except for the Quebec section.

[anderfo]

There's also thecrag.com, although it seems to be an everlasting project. everlasting project in the sense "never finished", but hopefully also everlasting in the sense "will not suddenly disappear".

[Fred]

hahaha See his description for About A Rope. I'll say he was off route.

[*Chris*]

It's a small risk given the obvious benefits. MP.com has a very nice set of existing tools and layout... and it seems to be supported by a huge resource pool.

There's also thecrag.com, although it seems to be an everlasting project. everlasting project in the sense "never finished", but hopefully also everlasting in the sense "will not suddenly disappear".

Wow... somebody was busy posting last year eh? I thought that was an insulin pump on your belt... not a blackberry?

[Fred]

I think it's a great idea if someone wants to invest the time. I would ask however that the topos in the current guidebook not be made public but feel free to copy any route information.

Fred

[*Chris*]

I think it's a great idea if someone wants to invest the time. I would ask however that the topos in the current guidebook not be made public but feel free to copy any route information.

Fred

Dude... I wouldn't even think it's fair to copy your descriptions. I guess it all depends. You've said that you have no future guidebook plans right? I didn't dream that up did I?

[Andrew]

I ran into some newer climbers earlier this year or maybe it was last year... I had to laugh when they showed me their copy of the 'new' guidebook (2007) and asked if I knew when the next one would be available as they seemed to be assuming it was an annual publication. I laughed and said that I hadn't even really started using the 2007 guide and that the old guidebook was 2000/1.

That being said... I would say that by 2012, a new guidebook would be very necessary. Whole new areas opened up and many new routes. Likely more than 100.

I think it's a great idea if someone wants to invest the time. I would ask however that the topos in the current guidebook not be made public but feel free to copy any route information.

Fred

Dude... I wouldn't even think it's fair to copy your descriptions. I guess it all depends. You've said that you have no future guidebook plans right? I didn't dream that up did I?

[PeterA]

What's wrong with our current logging system? I think it works well, no need to publish anything on MP IMO

-PJ

[Holly Reid]

My only concern is if the site shuts down you lose your info... DrTopo used to be a great spot for route info but it shut down except for the Quebec section.

You can still find most all the guides from Dr. Topo online, not just Quebec info. [http://www.drtopo.com/submitted/]

[Fred]

What's wrong with our current logging system? I think it works well, no need to publish anything on MP IMO

-PJ

We will continue to log new routes here. MP or other should be a supplement only.

[PeterA]

What's wrong with our current logging system? I think it works well, no need to publish anything on MP IMO

-PJ

We will continue to log new routes here. MP or other should be a supplement only.

I still don't see the need for MP though. If somebody needs to know new routes, they will just look on here anyway

-PJ

[*Chris*]

The advantages... as I see them

• Allows for the community to keep the list... rather than the work falling on 1 person
• Organized by area & wall. Nice flow
• Map location of crag for those new to area
• Allows photos to be linked to particular routes
• Allows for community to rate quality, grade, pro of new routes
• Searchable

The present system works, agreed... but is it as effective?

[Dom]

Allows for community to rate quality, grade, pro of new routes

...or old routes

I especially like that one. That way others will see that I think Whiter shade of pale is a 5.9, that Stratafactor direct 2nd pitch is 11+, that Wise crack is 10b, etc. hehehe

[STeveA]

What ever happened to the idea that we would not publish anything about the cliffs in Welsford. Why would we wnat to bring more people to our playground and risk all the access problems that go with over crowding etc. I think we should keep everything to our own forum and websites, and avoid posting info to global sites.

[Fred]

Why would we wnat to bring more people to our playground

Unless they are hot french girls from Quebec of course.

[JonA]

I don't like the idea. I've never found a problem with the current system, and I don't like anything that will encourage more traffic.

[Lucas]

I agree that we should refrain from posting information about Welsford on Mountain Project. Our access to the cliff is based on a user agreement with the base; we must keep in mind we are guests at this cliff. Increasing traffic from user groups that do not have a vested interest in our cliff may lead to problems - that they will be able to drive away from on their way home and we will have to deal with.

More people = more trash, more noise, more impact.

[Shawn B]

I agree that we should refrain from posting information about Welsford on Mountain Project. Our access to the cliff is based on a user agreement with the base; we must keep in mind we are guests at this cliff. Increasing traffic from user groups that do not have a vested interest in our cliff may lead to problems - that they will be able to drive away from on their way home and we will have to deal with.

More people = more trash, more noise, more impact.

Ditto.

[*Chris*]

That's a pretty overwhelming chorus. frig. I was honestly just trying to think of ways to make life easier. Forget about it.

[anderfo]

i didn't know that welsford climbers are so scared of visitors and foreigners...
do you expect a traffic jam on sticky fingers and the light fandango because of two hundred thousand spanish & french climbers entering saint john with cruise ships next spring?

[Matt Peck]

Yep, pretty insular sounding here guys and girls. I don't think I can ever remember waiting in line for a climb in welsford. And things would have to be several orders of magnitude worse for that to happen. Yes, with more people come more problems, but we've been able to work as a community to address these before. As long as we have so many people who are willing to go out on a limb and totally lambaste transgressors at our craig, Im not thinking we will have a lot of trouble.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people(ed) do nothing." -Edmund Burke

[Dom]

Man I think you guys are blowing this out of proportion. 99% of the American population probably doesn't know what New-Brunswick is aside from a City in new-Jersey. As for the Québécois, well they are too busy going to Parlee beach to stop in Welsford. And it's way too far of a drive for Upper-Canadians. So who's left? Nova-Scotians and PE islanders. Ohh damn they already know about the 'Secret crags'' of New-Brunswick. Guess the protectionism attidude didn't work against them...better do something about that guys!, maybe block off the Confederation bridge and flood the Sackville marshes!

A prime example of how Mountain Project won't affect Welsford is Clifton Maine. The are a bunch of routes of Clifton Maine on MP, yet I've been there twice and every time the crags we're filled to 0,01% capacity. The owner Don Nelligan practicly adopted us since he rarely sees climbers there!

Also, this May when we were at the ultra packed Kamouraska, I think every member of our group talked to Quebeckers about Welsford. (We we're a huge group) and I even made a beta post on Welsford in one of Québec climbing forum Yet, the rest of the Summer I didn't see anyone coming up from Québec randomly to get on Snakepeel and Rockstar.

And say what you want, but I've been to CL a lot this year and a bunch of times it was awesome outside yet there were 3, 4 cars max parked at the farm. If anything, CL is underused and that is why we need to clean routes, for lack of traffic on them.

My 0,02$ on the question. Again, I love the fact that MP makes a consensus grade, not just a sandbag grade or a soft grade.

[Shawn B]

Man I think you guys are blowing this out of proportion.

Yes all you guys are blowing this out of proportion. What is the BFD about getting this info on MP? The man who does the work to maintain this site says he will continue to do so. If that changes then find an alternate option. Heck things went fine when people just used the sign in book to record new routes and every so many years an updated guidebook or addendum was produced. We currently have a guidebook and plenty of info on this site and beta source to allow any visitor to find their way around just fine. And we seem to welcome visitors probably better than many other areas (ie. Kamou). I spent a day this summer showing a couple of visitors who I met in the parking lot around our lovely (and sometimes sandbagged) area. About grade consensus, I think that too has been adequately hashed out and agreed to on this site. If it ain't broke, why try to fix it. What is the benefits and what is the real reason for wanting it on a global website? And before a lot of info goes on such a global website I would hope that whomever does it gets the permission from the landowner. We have a unique situation here and it is not like our cliff is on public land. And if someone does post and negative consequences come from it they will have a lot of irate climbers to answer to. John did a pile or work to secure the current agreement we have. And CFB Gagetown is very gracious and accomdating for allowing us to access their land for our recreation purposes. Why stir the pot? No one is saying posting on MP will lead to lines on snakepeel...'cause that will not happen. I want to know WHY and should not be justifying WHY NOT.

[*Chris*]

What is the benefits and what is the real reason for wanting it on a global website? I want to know WHY and should not be justifying WHY NOT.

Jesus Shawn... serious?

What are you trying to accuse me of here? I proposed MP as a suggestion because I thought it might make life easier for the local community and relieve the work currently being handled mostly by 1 or 2 people. Instead, it is as if I am crusading for the end to climbing in NB. Do you guys not remember meeting me? I'm sure we've been introduced. Maybe I've lost the tone behind the messages here but it sure reads as if the true message has turned from "it's a stupid idea" to "this guy is trying to ruin our crag". I can live with folks thinking I've got dumb ideas. That's fine. I'm not o.k. with questioning my integrity though. That's just not called for in this case.

And as for the access issue... I don't know what to say? If secrecy about new lines is important how is that served by posting them to this forum? I was under the impression the entire internet was global? That includes climbeasterncanada.com. Search Google for 'climbing welsford'. I guarantee this site is in the first 3 hits.

Regardless, although I don't agree with your opinion I'll respect it because it seems to be widely supported. Consider the MP suggestion dropped.

p.s. maybe a mod can move this somewhere. it's gotten off-thread.

[Fred]

Yikes! Did I miss a couple messages in there? It was only a suggestion, no need to hang anyone.

[Kristy]

No one is attacking anyone. We all love Welsford and want to protect access.

On another note, this is why most people don't post to this site. A question was raised as to whether MP would be a good tool for us to use. Opinions were given and now those opinions are being perceived as attacks. If you want people to post, respect the fact that people may have differing opinions.

[Shawn B]

What are you trying to accuse me of here? I proposed MP as a suggestion because I thought it might make life easier for the local community and relieve the work currently being handled mostly by 1 or 2 people. Instead, it is as if I am crusading for the end to climbing in NB. Do you guys not remember meeting me? I'm sure we've been introduced. Maybe I've lost the tone behind the messages here but it sure reads as if the true message has turned from "it's a stupid idea" to "this guy is trying to ruin our crag". I can live with folks thinking I've got dumb ideas. That's fine. I'm not o.k. with questioning my integrity though. That's just not called for in this case.

Yes i'm serious. But holy fuk Chris...are you??? How the fuk did you get this out of what i posted???? Did i single you out? Did I say it was stupid? Did i say you were trying to ruin our crag? Here i'll spell it out for ya...no underlying themes or inuendo...
I don't think it is a good idea (not stupid...don't like that word) but not good.
I don't see any benefits in having this information in a more global resource (regardless of what shows up on google search you must admit mp is more global than cec)
Our current "system" works fine and the person who maintains it has indicated that he will continue to do so.
I do not think Chris is trying to ruin our crag.
I'm certain Chris means well with anything he proposes for our crag and the climbing community.
I'm certain i have the right to voice my opinion and should not be accused of things when i do so (if i have something to say trust me i will).
I don't post much here any more because of this bs that always seems to develop. Felt this was too important. sorry now that i bothered to put in my .02.

[PeterA]

A prime example of how Mountain Project won't affect Welsford is Clifton Maine. The are a bunch of routes of Clifton Maine on MP, yet I've been there twice and every time the crags we're filled to 0,01% capacity. The owner Don Nelligan practicly adopted us since he rarely sees climbers there!

In case Dad doesn't post it on here, ask him about what happened to Clifton when an editorial about it was published a few years back next time you see him

-PJ