free soloing

[Adam]

I realize people are going to disagree with this and say it is their right, however...

PLEASE DO NOT FREE SOLO AROUND OTHER CLIMBERS.

There is plenty of cliff up there, and you have every right to free solo, but please realize you're obligating anyone who is present to deal with the messy situation should u fall. If you want to free solo, please do it when no one else is around. It is a very selfish thing to put other people in that situation. None of us want to deal with that sort of situation.

Moreover, please also recognize the potential implications a free soloing accident could have on the community's access rights. If a climber dies at Cochrane Lane, it is quite possible the base would want to shut down climber access. I realize we've had some accidents before but as far as I know, no one has died, and while any accident is regrettable, I can see a death as having greater ramifications than other accidents.

Just please consider this before considering going free soloing at the best and our favourite cragg in NB.

[martha]

Thank you Adam for posting this.

We discussed this topic quite headily at the campsite on Saturday night.

Free soloing is typically viewed as a very PERSONAL venture. so keep it that way. When it is done in front of others it is nothing short of show boating. It is unsafe, immature and stupid. New climbers especially who are not aware of the implications of such acts are so easily influenced. I recognize that it is anyones personal choice to solo, but as Adam pointed out, the obligation is on whoever is around to clean up the potential mess.

On a side note, I didn't see the soloing going on as I was busy WITH MY KIDS. Had I seen it, or should I ever see it happening by ANYONE when I have my kids at the crag.. there will be the wrath of one VERY angry parent to deal with. Can you imagine the terror that would be felt by a 2 or 4 year old to witness a soloing accident? Adults have a rough enough time dealing with this, there is no need for it to be inflicted on children. Use your head.

Cochrane lane is a community place, please treat it as such. I am not willing to have it taken away from us so selfishly.


Thanks.

[STeveA]

"Everybody free-solos. When you walk to the store, you're free-soloing. It's just a matter of the difficulty of the route." — John Bachar

[Adam]

"Everybody free-solos. When you walk to the store, you're free-soloing. It's just a matter of the difficulty of the route." — John Bachar

John was an athletic master. Not so much on the logic.

[martha]

"Everybody free-solos. When you walk to the store, you're free-soloing. It's just a matter of the difficulty of the route." — John Bachar

Yes, well, thankfully no one is going to shut our streets down when someone dies from an unfortunate walking accident.

[STeveA]

"The world is a better place to live in because it contains human beings who will give up ease and security in order to do what they themselves think worth doing. They do the useless, brave, noble, divinely foolish, and the very wisest things that are done by Man. And what they prove to themselves and to others is that Man is no mere creature of his habits, no automaton in his routine, but that in the dust of which he is made there is also fire, lighted now and then by great winds from the sky." — Walter Lippmann

[*Chris*]

"The world is a better place to live in because it contains human beings who will give up ease and security in order to do what they themselves think worth doing. They do the useless, brave, noble, divinely foolish, and the very wisest things that are done by Man. And what they prove to themselves and to others is that Man is no mere creature of his habits, no automaton in his routine, but that in the dust of which he is made there is also fire, lighted now and then by great winds from the sky." — Walter Lippmann

Do you honestly believe that this statement applies to the situation at hand?

Both Adam and Cara have explained why this is a foolish thing to do and how it can potentially impact all of us. I should have spoken up in person over the weekend rather than on the forum... but quite honestly, I was a bit dumbstruck. For that, I'm sorry. Regardless, please consider how your activities might have larger consequences.

[STeveA]

Do you honestly believe that this statement applies to the situation at hand?

Yes!

Which is more selfish, a rock climber who persues the ultimate expression of the sport by climbing without protection on routes well within his limits, or a soccer mom who brings her kids to the cliff and then expects everyone else to follow rules that she has decided are appropriate for her kids!

I object to people who want to join the club, but then insist that the club change the rules because they have now joined. I brought my kids to the cliff from the age of 3 weeks and up, and I never expected people to change their behaviour because I chose to bring my kids. If I had a problem I would not have brought my kids.

[martha]

Do you honestly believe that this statement applies to the situation at hand?

Yes!

Which is more selfish, a rock climber who persues the ultimate expression of the sport by climbing without protection on routes well within his limits, or a soccer mom who brings her kids to the cliff and then expects everyone else to follow rules that she has decided are appropriate for her kids!

I object to people who want to join the club, but then insist that the club change the rules because they have now joined. I brought my kids to the cliff from the age of 3 weeks and up, and I never expected people to change their behaviour because I chose to bring my kids. If I had a problem I would not have brought my kids.

I take offence to this. I have NEVER agreed with someone soloing in front of others, regardless of if I had my kids with me or not. (Ulysse can surely tell you about the strip I tore off him for soloing in front of me. Yet I still love him as a climbing partner when he places gear.) However, I oppose soloing even MORE now. I'd like for my kids to grow to love climbing and be a part of it in all its ways and not witness some horror that would make them never want to drive past Welsford again, let alone tie on a pair of climbing shoes.. or maybe even sleep at night. Hell, it might even be me who never wants to climb again if I witness someone fall from the top of whiter shade of pale and I don't want that either.

Soloing is a personal and private choice and something that should be done while alone, not something that should be shown off in front of others. I will not leave my kids at home because soloing is supposedly an 'accepted and expected' practice at our crag. That's bullsh!t and you know it. No one wants to clean up that kind of mess.

I suspect that most of the climbing community feels the same way and not just this soccer mom who makes up her own rules.

[Adam]

Do you honestly believe that this statement applies to the situation at hand?

Yes!

Which is more selfish, a rock climber who persues the ultimate expression of the sport by climbing without protection on routes well within his limits, or a soccer mom who brings her kids to the cliff and then expects everyone else to follow rules that she has decided are appropriate for her kids!

I object to people who want to join the club, but then insist that the club change the rules because they have now joined. I brought my kids to the cliff from the age of 3 weeks and up, and I never expected people to change their behaviour because I chose to bring my kids. If I had a problem I would not have brought my kids.

i realize you have a penchant for trolling Steve, but you're not making any friends here - Cara didn't say everyone else had to follow her 'rules'. we have asked if those doing it would think about what they're doing and adjust their behaviour accordingly. if they still feel that there's no reason to accommodate others' wishes to free solo away from crowds then so be it. they won't exactly be making any friends either.

i guess u must not like the whole 'law and justice' club either, since the rules there change when times and situations change. many more people are climbing now, much higher public profile, much more wide-reaching consequences for more people if our access was shut down.

do us a favour and think about the bigger picture, considering than some idealistic and completely subjective idea of the 'ultimate expression of the sport'.

[Adam]

considering more than some idealistic and completely subjective idea of the 'ultimate expression of the sport'.

[chossmonkey]

Does anyone actually know of a cliff that was closed because someone died soloing?

Would it have remained open had that person died while tied into a rope?



If someone solos and falls they do involve everyone at the cliff because of the rescue/recovery. Its still no different if they are tied into a rope and eat it.

I don't think most small children really understand death. Unless someone lands right in front of them they won't really know anything except that something bad has happened.

Personally I'd prefer if people don't solo around others, but I'd probably not ask them not to unless they looked like serious risk. Same as someone leading.

[Jon Corey]

I know of at least 1 cliff that was completely closed because of birds. This same cliff was completely closed because the one who had control over it decided to close it.
If a climber dies at almost any other cliff It will be business as usual the next day. If someone dies while climbing (or after falling) in Welsford the cliff will be closed.
I am certain of that.
I hope that I will not be the reason for our area to be closed.

[Fred]

a rock climber who persues the ultimate expression of the sport by climbing without protection on routes well within his limits

To think that soloing is the ultimate expression of the sport sounds a bit old school in my opinion. Iron workers used to walk the high steel without safety equipment and hockey goalies never used to wear face masks... but guess what, times changes. I think it's a shame that people think soloing is part of climbing, it doesn't have to be.

I respect those who choose to solo but not those who showboat. To climb solo circling above and below other climbing groups is nothing but an expression of "hey look at me". I know several well respected climbers who solo on occasion but they all do it on their own time without an audience. You didn't know? Exactly...

Peace.

Fred

[Dom]

"Everybody free-solos. When you walk to the store, you're free-soloing. It's just a matter of the difficulty of the route." — John Bachar

John Bachar died free-soloing...I'm glad Cochrane Lane wasn't on his soloing list...

[john]

i have no comment about the situation at hand, but I have seen far more people using ropes who I thought were going to hurt or kill themselves then soloists who I thought were dangerous. I have at least 8 times in welsford said something to help someone or avoid a percieved accident over the years, all to people with ropes and never once to a soloist. I try to tell them politely and as a suggestion to help, if they seem to need it, not to police them.

Climbing has differnt rules and consequences depending how you approach it, but even when approached correctly and apparently safely things happen. Why should anyone judege others choices, other then to help them.

I think soloing has its place.

Showboating does suck though if that is true, with or without a rope.

[TG33]

The most dangerous people I have ever seen climbing have been on a rope.

[STeveA]

I suspect that most of the climbing community feels the same way and not just this soccer mom who makes up her own rules.

I have only met a few people that feel soloing is not part of the sport of climbing, and all of those are on this forum. Everyone I have talked to feels soling is definately a part of the sport. They may not do it, but they definately respect it. Check out the climbing magazines, videos and articles, then tell me soloing is not part of the sport.

Do not confuse soloing with showing off. I do not endorse showing off either with or without a rope.

[Stacey]

Is there a difference between free soloing It's a Way of Life (or something else that is low on the difficult scale), vs. a higher grade climb?

Consequences are the same from 80 feet up whether you fall off a 5.4 or 5.10


just saying...

[Shawn B]

Some people love to cuss and swear....in fact some may argue it is the ultimate form of verbal expression. That said...there is a time and a place to do so and it is inappropriate, inconsiderate and selfish if you don't take into consideration others around you when you use such profanity. This excludes the ignorance of some who truly don't know any better.

Soloing is definitely a part of the sport of climbing. It may not be part of everyone's climbing but it is part of the sport.

Whether soloing is the ultimate form of climbing is up to the individual to decide. Whether you partake in soloing is up to the individual to decide whether the risks are worth it. The individual must understand there is no margin for error, understand the consequences, be willing to accept the consequences and not be encouraged/influenced by others. There is also a time and a place as well. Amongst 25-30 other climbers whilst the rest of the cliff has no one climbing imo is not the time and place. Encouraging others to partake in soloing is also not appropriate.

A carte blanch statement "soloing should not be allowed" is also selfish and inappropriate. As Brent stated, there are far more dangerous actions taken by some who feel their rope provides the certainty of safety. Some need to train to solo to attain their personal climbing goals. So long as consideration for others is taken into account there should not be an issue. It is a human nature thing, not a climbing thing.

[Shawn B]

PS How many who are dissing soloing have climbed standard route on whitehorse ledge in North Conway? You do realize that even though you have a rope you are in effect at times soloing?

[TG33]

Well said Shawn. This issue is not about a rope. It is about being considerate of others at the crag.

[PeterA]

Is there a difference between free soloing It's a Way of Life (or something else that is low on the difficult scale), vs. a higher grade climb?

Consequences are the same from 80 feet up whether you fall off a 5.4 or 5.10


just saying...

And the consequences remain the same whether you fall soloing or screw up free climbing.

-PJ

[Adam]

This conversation was never meant to be about whether soloing is part of the sport or not. It started with a request that people be considerate to those around them, and that they think of the implications an accident will have on access to our beloved crag.

and to remember that if you fall soloing, I'm walking in the other direction from your crater.

[PeterA]

[quote="Adam"]This conversation was never meant to be about [quote]

Welcome to the internet

-PJ

[martha]

I never said that Soloing itself is wrong. I understand that it is part of the sport. I have only suggested that it is a personal thing that should be done alone or at least in a low key manner if others are around. Showboating is not soloing for the sake of climbing.

Have I soloed? Yes. would I again given my life circumstances with kids etc? no. That is MY choice. Just like it is YOUR (anyones) choice to solo or not.

Respect is what it comes down to... respect for our Crag and its continued access and respect for others who are around you.

I'm with Adam. I'm walking past the crater... I am not interested in dealing with that mess.

[Adam]

Welcome to the internet

-PJ

just trying to bring it back around

[john]

SO if someone fell with a rope you help and without a rope you don't because you don't agree with the way they hurt themselves?

I sometimes drive by car accidents if I think they are speeding and using their blinkers when the crash happened.

[martha]

if someone falls soloing... I doubt there will be any help needed. Likely it will be a recovery mission and not a rescue. That is what I'm suggesting anyways.

[TG33]

If we put things in perspective the most likely accident to result in a fatality in Welsford is a rappelling accident. If you follow the Accidents in North American Mountaineering you will see that most accidents resulting in a fatality occur rappelling. Although multi pitch rappels are few in Welsford.