DDT

[Andrew]

Guess so.

I'll offer my resignation in the morning.

Andrew

I think people just like to get their word in ...



...Concerning DDT - I haven't climbed this yet; --

Jeez Andrew - I hate to pick on you - but if you have NOT even climbed the route yet (and therefore have no reference as to where the crack vs bolts are),
doesn't that make you *as you say* one of those people who just like to get their word in?

[Matt Peck]

Well Put Stace. And a committee? Seriously? When the time comes that I need a license to operate a bolt gun, I will be strongly thinking about getting out of climbing.

[Adam]

Well Put Stace. And a committee? Seriously? When the time comes that I need a license to operate a bolt gun, I will be strongly thinking about getting out of climbing.

agreed - we need no committee.

[Fred]

I have removed the first two bolts on DDT. We can re-evaluate later if the other bolts need to be removed as well.

[cory]

Last month Dom and I climbed SEE while Josh & Graham did DDT. At one point we could have shaken hands, but none of us felt any sort of confusion about the routes, or one route or party intruding on the other.

Since you have done your part to appease the vocal minority, perhaps others who've committed grievous bolting errors will step up to the plate and clean up their mess.

[Adam]

perhaps others who've committed grievous bolting errors will step up to the plate and clean up their mess.

not gonna hold my breath

[Dom]

Since you have done your part to appease the vocal minority, perhaps others who've committed grievous bolting errors will step up to the plate and clean up their mess.

Anubis, Anubis, Anubis.

Sorry but this route should not even exist... 1. Who in their right mind will go up that way and avoid using the awesome crack dihedral- can you say contrived route?
2. the crack takes bomber gear
3. those bolts are sticking out at least an inch out of the rock-dangerous

I climbed October Sky (new route found in beta-source) that uses the dihedral and I easily could've clipped the bolts on Anubis while climbing that G rated crack. By the way, I've also climbed Anubis before and I think October Sky is 30 times better!

I know I'm not the first one making a crack at Anubis for violating the ''ethics'' and I wonder how it is that those bolts haven't been removed. IMO Goodman said it best so I'll recopy his quote here:

Since you have done your part to appease the vocal minority, perhaps others who've committed grievous bolting errors will step up to the plate and clean up their mess.

P.S. I thought the bolts on DDT were fine as nobody climbing SEE would logically clip a bolt behind their backs...

[STeveA]

Keep in mind that Anubis was established before the tree that hid the crack fell down. There was no crack route, and you certainly could not protect Anubis with pro in the crack behind the tree. I think the climb that came first has precidence.

[*Chris*]

When is Welsford's self-appointed ethics commissioner headed out to clean up Waterfall Layback?

[Adam]

Keep in mind that Anubis was established before the tree that hid the crack fell down. There was no crack route, and you certainly could not protect Anubis with pro in the crack behind the tree. I think the climb that came first has precidence.

Steve, I'm calling BS. you guys cut down several trees and left the one tree that was blocking the crack.

Anubis needs to go.

[Adam]

I have removed the first two bolts on DDT. We can re-evaluate later if the other bolts need to be removed as well.

We should
leave the bolts on DDT 78% [ 18 ] x
chop the bolts on DDT 21% [ 5 ]

I guess this is our version of reasonable accommodation?

[cory]

"Fell down"? I am also calling BS. The tree was healthy (and could have been hitched and held a fall). The climb was contrived in the first place with such a big tree at your shoulder, someone cut it down.

[STeveA]

Keep in mind that Anubis was established before the tree that hid the crack fell down. There was no crack route, and you certainly could not protect Anubis with pro in the crack behind the tree. I think the climb that came first has precidence.

Steve, I'm calling BS. you guys cut down several trees and left the one tree that was blocking the crack.

Anubis needs to go.

I disagree.

[Shawn B]

you guys cut down several trees and left the one tree that was blocking the crack.

Those trees were cut down probably 6 or 7 years ago and I do not know for certain who cut them.
Anubis was put up before the tree fell (after a bit of trimming around the base ) which does make this a totally different situation from if they were placed after the crack was opened up for gear placement (the pickets are hurting my butt a little bit).
After the tree fell (I'm quite certain it did actually fall) the crack was opened up for the new route "Roundup" which is a very nice direct start to Pass the Moonshine.
Steve A did not cut that tree down.
Can you clip Anubis bolts from Roundup? Certainly can. Are they big and ugly? Certainly are.
Should Anubis be put to rest considering the circumstances? I think it should. I doubt anyone has climbed Anubis since Roundup opened up. Does it matter what I think? Yes but not enough to act on behalf of the whole community...that would be selfish.

Back to DDT. I climbed SEE specifically with the purpose of analyzing the bolts on DDT this spring. While yes they "could" be clipped you would have to go out of your way to clip them and even at that be stretching to do so. It would not be a logical thing to do. Lots of routes exist where you can see a bolt from the route and "could" traverse out to clip it. I personally didn't feel they were intrusive on SEE. Would I have placed them there...no I probably would have placed them a foot or so just around the corner to the left (but I didn't put the effort into doing it in the first place either). I also think it was a mistake to remove them. Hopefully someone will be generous enough to re-locate them a foot or so left...preferably someone who was opposed to them in the first place. Do something productive for the sake of climbing in Welsford rather than just bitch about stuff on this site. Fred did what he felt was his part compromising now go do yours to your satisfaction so the route can be climbed again. Pro on SEE while climbing DDT is not a reasonable option. Again there are a number of "ethic infractions" which should have been dealt with before this one. It was a very grey arguement imo.

Wow...two posts in a month. Done now until fall....no promises Cory.

[cory]

I disagree.

To paraphrase Monty Python:
-That's not an argument, that's a contradiction. I paid for a good arguement.
-No. You paid for an argument.
Please explain.

The tree did not fall of it's own accord. A simple inspection of the stump and trunk reveal it was healthy and cut. I'm not pointing any fingers here -and I don't really care who cut it or why. The tree did not hide the crack. It was possible to squeeze gear behind it. A fall would have resulted in a pendulum into the tree, so PG or maybe R. As stated earlier a girth hitch to the trunk would also have held a fall, also PG/R. But that's not my point.

No first ascensionist in their right mind would cut 5 of the 6 trunks and leave the most prominent obstruction to the crack. Steve is in his right mind. He felt the face was distinct from the crack and warranted bolts. At the time it was established, Anubius was a valid route (not 3 stars, but definitely worthy of notation). But that's not my point either.

Rocks fall. Trees die. Pin scars eventually enlarge to become finger-locks. Aid routes are freed. When the tree "fell" it exposed a new weakness, which has since been climbed on natural gear (Roundup, October Sky). Though neither is the same route as the original, they are well within an arms-length of it. Since the newer routes follow the natural feature, it appears as though the bolts encroach on the crack. Aside from being unsightly, this sets a precedence of acceptable proximity of bolts to cracks. (Perhaps unfair, but unless we put up a plaque explaining them...)

Now, if an historically aid route with fixed pins is freed or climbed with clean aid gear, it is generally considered not cool to hammer in some new pitons. Similarly, if a large block that formed a crack were to fall, leaving a 30'+ blank face in it's wake, it might be acceptable to add a bolt or two provided no gear placements were available along this stretch of the pitch. I argue that if natural forces were to expose features that accept natural gear, where protection had previously been unavailable (in an historically Trad area, at least) the fixed protection should be discretely removed.

[Joe]

I killed the tree and cleaned the crap out of the crack. At the time there was no other route but Anubis. The "cleaning" of Roundup exposed a good crack thus rendering the Anubis bolt unnecessary. Now it is a matter of deciding whether Anubis should remain as a route, because if the bolt is removed, the route will die. So the question is whether Anubis should live or die. I climbed it once, and ain't planning on doing it again.

[Adam]

I killed the tree and cleaned the crap out of the crack. At the time there was no other route but Anubis. The "cleaning" of Roundup exposed a good crack thus rendering the Anubis bolt unnecessary. Now it is a matter of deciding whether Anubis should remain as a route, because if the bolt is removed, the route will die. So the question is whether Anubis should live or die. I climbed it once, and ain't planning on doing it again.

removal of the tree exposed the crack but the crack was always there... and was visible, if blocked for part of it. thank you for removing it Joe!

i've not climbed anubis and never had plans to - always seemed a contrived route, and the very shallow placement of the bolts was not encouraging. the crack however i do plan on giving a try.

[GKelly]

Regarding the DDT bolt issue.

I climbed DDT a couple months ago and thought it was a fantastic route. I went out on Saturday and climbed SEE with the intention of really looking around to see what all the fuss was about. My belayer had to actually remind me to look for the bolts! In my opinion the DDT bolts in no way change the character of SEE. Had I not climbed DDT first and been reading all of your valued arguments I wouldn't have noticed them.
If the change in commitment level of SEE is in question lets face it. Anyone who has climbed the awsome routes to access SEE is probably very capable of leading the route with out going out of there way to clip bolts behind their back.
I was happy to see studs still in place and hope that we'll decide to put the hangers back on. If not... It is true that the route is still protectable yes, but it will not be as awsome. Why remove the awsomeness?

PS. Do the majority of you feel that SEE is 5.3? The grade seemed a little low to me. Fun route though.

Sincerely,

Greg

[Fred]

Can't put the hangers back on. The studs have been torqued but I couldn't break them off. I'll break them off on the next trip out but didn't have a hammer on me. Sorry. I'll eventually re-located them further around the arete when I find the time.

On a side note, I did look to see if there was a route up the face instead of up the arete next to SEE. I'm not seeing it unless it started from the other ledge over next to Rythm Sticks. There is a blank section with virtualy no holds. Hence why I went up the arete.

[Adam]

I'd like to see someone who was complaining about the bolt placement cough up the money to replace the bolts Fred removed, but further left. It was a great route that was getting a LOT of traffic and now it is not going to. Step up and put your money where your mouth is. I'm too lazy to go back thru this thread and make a list of you guys but you know who u are.

[Stacey]

I have removed the first two bolts on DDT. We can re-evaluate later if the other bolts need to be removed as well.

I go away for a month - - and all heck breaks loose... what the... I believe the poll was 80% to keep the bolts...hmm - are we a democracy or are we the squeakiest wheel gets the grease

I'm sorry the bolts are gone...I thought this DDT thread was done with bolting issues...

Stace

[Stacey]

Keep in mind that Anubis was established before the tree that hid the crack fell down. There was no crack route, and you certainly could not protect Anubis with pro in the crack behind the tree. I think the climb that came first has precidence.

I realize that the 'tree' in question was obviously a big one (based on the stump) -- BUT I have a hard time believing that it was so far 'in' the crack to actually HIDE that huge crack ...

The tree is gone - the crack is obvious - - and therefore bolts not required n'est pas?

stace

[Stacey]

... Hopefully someone will be generous enough to re-locate them a foot or so left...preferably someone who was opposed to them in the first place. Do something productive for the sake of climbing in Welsford rather than just bitch about stuff on this site.

amen

[STeveA]

Keep in mind that Anubis was established before the tree that hid the crack fell down. There was no crack route, and you certainly could not protect Anubis with pro in the crack behind the tree. I think the climb that came first has precidence.

I realize that the 'tree' in question was obviously a big one (based on the stump) -- BUT I have a hard time believing that it was so far 'in' the crack to actually HIDE that huge crack ...

The tree is gone - the crack is obvious - - and therefore bolts not required n'est pas?

stace

There was no way you could have accessed the crack when the tree was there. Also, one climb goes left and the other goes right. They are 2 different climbs that only come close at the ground.

[Adam]

There was no way you could have accessed the crack when the tree was there. Also, one climb goes left and the other goes right. They are 2 different climbs that only come close at the ground.

I think the point is, now that the crack is exposed, those bolts are clippable while climbing the crack. Considering all the controversy over DDT, and regardless of whether they were put in before the tree was taken down, I think the consensus here is that they should be removed.

[Stacey]

There was no way you could have accessed the crack when the tree was there. Also, one climb goes left and the other goes right. They are 2 different climbs that only come close at the ground.

I think the point is, now that the crack is exposed, those bolts are clippable while climbing the crack. Considering all the controversy over DDT, and regardless of whether they were put in before the tree was taken down, I think the consensus here is that they should be removed.

you bet - that is my take on it too - - a protectable beautiful crack is now available for bomber gear placement....

[seanT]

Popping in from NS. I say fill in that crack with cement..return the cliff to its "natural" state and rebolt that bad boy!!!!!
just my 2 cents....
just kidding...love this thread LOVE it..we need some spray like this in NS to wash some of the lichen and dirt off our unclimbed trad routes
GET SOMEEEEEE

[STeveA]

Popping in from NS. I say fill in that crack with cement..return the cliff to its "natural" state and rebolt that bad boy!!!!!
just my 2 cents....
just kidding...love this thread LOVE it..we need some spray like this in NS to wash some of the lichen and dirt off our unclimbed trad routes
GET SOMEEEEEE

Exactly what I was thinking. Put the tree back in place rather than chopping a perfectly good bolt.

[Dom]

Exactly what I was thinking. Put the tree back in place rather than chopping a perfectly good bolt.

I heard Adam is good at planting trees. Apparently he planted one at Joe's.
hehe