Sticky Fingers

[Murph]

Hey Adam,

I'm not really trying to get in the middle of anything here but...

I think there are a number of sport climbs out there where you would not want to fall clipping the second bolt.
Falling while clipping is a generally dangerous thing...
For example, I think you would be in the dirt if you fell clipping the second bolt on Celestial Motion at Sunnyside. What do you think?

That doesn't mean I wouldn't lead it, it just means that I'd be damn sure I was going to be able to clip before taking out slack.

Liam

http://climbeasterncanada.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5963

[Nihoa]

all this says is that there are diff types of climbing and this leads to diff ideas on how the rock should be used. go ahead and switch out trad for ski and boltheads for snowboarding and this whole argument is paralleled in that universe. there will never be fact or evidence that proves one right or good as all of this is a values debate. the only way to solve values debates is with consultation and consensus/compromise .

By the ‘90s, large numbers of well-bolted climbs reduced the psychological component of climbing and increased the physical component in many locations...

[Fred]

1. Given that Adam is a strong climber I highly doubt that he placed the bolt for his own safety. Anyone attacking his character or ability to climb this route without the extra bolt obviously doesn't know him.

2. An individual took his own time and money to replaced an old rusty bolt. Regardless of if I agree or disagree with the position of said bolts, I can't hang him out to dry on this one. That's just bad karma.

3. Chopping the bolt sends only one message, "Conform to our standard or else..." Almost smells like religious assimilation.

4. Any route developer is a bit naive if they think their route will be preserved in time. Only god has that kinda power

[Dom]

1. Given that Adam is a strong climber I highly doubt that he placed the bolt for his own safety. Anyone attacking his character or ability to climb this route without the extra bolt obviously doesn't know him.

2. An individual took his own time and money to replaced an old rusty bolt. Regardless of if I agree or disagree with the position of said bolts, I can't hang him out to dry on this one. That's just bad karma.

3. Chopping the bolt sends only one message, "Conform to our standard or else..." Almost smells like religious assimilation.

4. Any route developer is a bit naive if they think their route will be preserved in time. Only god has that kinda power

5. Adam was willing to buy a round of beer to whoever wanted to debate and argue about his bolt placements. now that's ethics if you ask me!

[coryhal]

to be honest adam, ive never made the connection between the adam ive climbed with and the adam on this form. they seemed like two completly different people.

[Shawn B]

Disclaimer: I have no personal political opinion on the bolts. If they are there, I'll clip 'em....if not I guess I'll climb mamalian to get to the crack on sticky fingers...either way, I'll have fun.

A couple of observations, statements and questions:
1. Adam was trying to do a service to the community by replacing an old rusty bolt in the best way he saw fit. I appreciate that.
2. Cory was way out of line chopping that bolt.
3. There is bomber gear at the lip of the roof.
4. If you are not 5'10" you could not clip the original bolt (OB) while standing on the jug above the roof. If you are over 5"10" you could stand there and clip the OB. If under 5'10" you had to make some not hard (6ish) moves but with somewhat slopey feet to get to where the bolt could be clipped. If you fell before clipping or while clipping, you were looking at ground fall.
5. New bolt # 1 (NB1) is now chopped. I hope the mess will be covered up by the chopper.
6. The gear close to NB1 is a #3 BD nut 12 or so inches below and a #1 tcu in a horizontal 18 inches up and right. Neither I would call bomber. Nut would be ok and cam probably good although it is a bit flaring. There may be another small nut available where the rock is better if it is cleaned out.
7. The OB was closer (12 inches) to the horizontal cam placement than the NB1. Why was this ok for so many years?
8. New bolt # 2 (NB2) is approx 3 feet higher and a bit right of the OB.
9. Cory what was your reason for chopping? Natural gear close or because you feel the route was altered? If because natural gear close, why didn't you chop the OB long ago? If you chopped because the route was altered, you chopped the wrong bolt. NB#2 makes the route less committing than the OB so that changes the nature of the route more than NB1. Was always somewhat exciting placing the blind horizontal cam placement with bolt at your feet. Now bolt is at your balls.
10. I’m sure Adam would have contacted the FA if possible.
11. Calling FA’s a work of art is insulting to artists. You can’t compare what Rosie does to a FA. Sure it does take a lot of grunt work (cleaning flowers out of cracks and scrubbing) and $ to equip routes. But you don’t “create” the route...took many thousands of years to do that. You clean it. I dig flowers out of the crack of my ass and scrub it daily and I don’t call that art...although it is quite the piece of work.
12. There are 8 other bolts in Welsford which have been around for years which are far more unethical than NB1 on sticky fingers. Why chop this one when it was still being discussed by the community?
I hope this won’t keep people from taking care of our crag. There is lots more scrubbing and much needed bolt replacements...although I’m sure Adam won’t be rushing out to replace any soon. Peace, love and let’s get neked.

[granite_grrl]

Shawn, this seems to be a well thought out excellent reply.

[STeveA]

Why is it that when someone tries to do something good for the community they get crapped on?

At no point in this discussion do I detect anyone attacking Adam. This discussion is about Sticky Fingers and the bolts on it. I have not heard anyone say bad things about Adam for the effort he put into fixing an old route. The decision to place 2 bolts was taken in discussion with people present at the time. The actions since are not a reflection of how people feel about Adam, but rather how they feel about the route. Obviously, I am speaking for myself on this issue, but my discussions with other climbers indicate that this is also their opinion. This forum is obviously not as good as The Lunar Rouge, or the 3-mile for discussing these issues.

[anderfo]

At no point in this discussion do I detect anyone attacking Adam.

I'm trying not to get involved, but I've read everything in this discussion. I even think I understood everything that was written, and I detect something...taken out of context, but anyway:

I am sure Don is rolling in his crevasse.

The creator of this climb would not thank you for making his route safer.

If you remove the other bolt then I think you are being childish

Who's the wuss that added a second bolt to Sticky Fingers?

Read it again and go buy Adam a beer at Lunar Rogue

/notinvolved

[STeveA]

I see the same things but stick with my statement that I do not feel they were aimed at Adam, but rather pertained to the route only. I would be happy to buy a beer at the 3-mile. Better yet, come down to my beach and we can drink beers looking at Ministers Face.

[Adam]

FTR I have not taken anything personally, even being called a wuss b/c I know people say stupid things sometimes. I will however take that beer when I can get down there!

[cory]

Just couldn't stay away, eh Shawn?
Great comments.
I almost flowered my crack reading number 11!
__________________
(goodman, not to be confused with the other guy)

[Greg]

11. Calling FA’s a work of art is insulting to artists. You can’t compare what Rosie does to a FA. Sure it does take a lot of grunt work (cleaning flowers out of cracks and scrubbing) and $ to equip routes. But you don’t “create” the route...took many thousands of years to do that. You clean it. I dig flowers out of the crack of my ass and scrub it daily and I don’t call that art...although it is quite the piece of work.

I didn't call Stickey Fingers a work of art. I was making an analogy. Apparently it was lost on you but that's a good thing, as it permitted us to learn about your splendid hygiene practices.

[STeveA]

11. Calling FA’s a work of art is insulting to artists. You can’t compare what Rosie does to a FA. Sure it does take a lot of grunt work (cleaning flowers out of cracks and scrubbing) and $ to equip routes. But you don’t “create” the route...took many thousands of years to do that. You clean it. I dig flowers out of the crack of my ass and scrub it daily and I don’t call that art...although it is quite the piece of work.

I have heard many sculptors say that they simply remove all the stone that wasn't part of the statue. Sounds like creating a route only we remove all the dirt, lichen and loose rock that was not part of the route. Also sounds like you are sculpting your ass, so I think you are an artists (asstist?).

[Adam]

I didn't call Stickey Fingers a work of art. I was making an analogy.

i think making the analogy means u were calling it art. kinda hard to back out of that one

they have nuances of art, but are not art IMHO. definitely creations, but more like building a road or a garden. they can have intrinsic beauty, but an artist puts part of their soul into a piece of art, whereas FAs put thought, blood, sweat and hopefully not tears into cleaning and equipping them. debatable tho.

[cory]

Only when you chip holds, drill pockets, and glue on accessories does a route become art.

[*Chris*]

Only when you chip holds, drill pockets, and glue on accessories does a route become art.

What counts as an accessory? All I can think of is this? Have you changed your outlook Cory?

[martha]

Ah.. I was having a laugh about this the other day. thanks for bring that awesome thread back to life Chris!

[Stef]

I dig flowers out of the crack of my ass

Stinky Fingers, 5.10b

[Fred]

lmao Stef

[anderfo]

I dig flowers out of the crack of my ass

Stinky Fingers, 5.10b

Haha, this is hilarious. My next crack climbing FA will be inspired by you guys.

[Adam]

Ok so I went up and took another look with the intention of removing the bolt. In the end I decided to leave it b/c I did not want to leave a second blemish on the rock, and I think the route should never have had ANY bolts after inspecting all the gear placements.

There IS a decent blue TCU placement just right of where the original bolt was. If this blue TCU placement is so bomber then NO bolts are required for this route. The rock around the placement is ok, but the placement is very shallow. If there were no bolt above it I would have been a little worried about it going up to the next horizontal. I think I never saw this placement b/c the old bolt was literally about 12 inches from it and so I would focus in on the bolt to clip it.

I find it smack-me-in-the-face-hypocritical to defend Don's ethics so devoutly when the bolt he equipped was not necessary. It easily could have been led on gear. Would it have been 'safe'? Well that is always debatable... but Don decided to put a bolt in (which i assume he put in on rappel) to make the route more palatable. Which is exactly what I did when i replaced one with two. It just doesn't make any sense to hear you guys defend your trad ethics while ignoring the fact that the original bolt was ultimately unnecessary. If Don was ok with putting a bolt RIGHT NEXT to a crack, then I doubt he would have had issue with the retrobolt effort. But of course I cannot speak for him, and neither should anyone else.

Lastly, Cory, I suggest you take some epoxy up there and grab some granite sand and cover up the blemish you left behind. It is very unsightly.... if you're gonna do a job, do it right.

[coryhal]

we pluged the hole with a small rock, it beat in there quite a bit, i cant imagine it fell out. Did u cover up the blemish you left???

[Adam]

true enough, i did not fill the old hole with dust, but i can barely see the hole from the original bolt and thought it was subtle enough to leave as is. the newer hole is pretty visible and unsightly. it was enough to help convince me to not remove the other one