Sticky Fingers

[STeveA]

I climbed Sticky Fingers with Jon on Sunday. This was the first time that Jon has led the route. The first bolt is a waste of effort. Jon did not use it since by the time he reached the bolt he could clip the second bolt anyway. I have talked to a couple of other people and they also did not bother clipping the first bolt. I suggest we remove it and use the hanger as part of a 2 bolt anchor at the top of the route instead. There are so many places for pro prior to the second bolt it is not funny. I am sure Don is rolling in his crevasse.

[Adam]

Jon climbs what, 5.12+? a 5.10 climber might not have such an easy time getting to that 2nd bolt.
The old bolt was below where the new 2nd bolt is. If there is that much gear on that section then chop both bolts, otherwise I suggest leaving both since it removes possibility of a ground fall situation.

In the least I suggest giving it a full season before making a judgement so that more people can have a go on it as is and actually have an educated opinion.

[STeveA]

Regardless of what Jon climbs, in order to clip the bolt you actually have to avoid placing pro, use long slings, or add rope drag to the climb. the first bolt is too low for the actual route. There is no ground fall potential unless you do not place pro, and this can be said of every route in the world.

[Adam]

Regardless of what Jon climbs, in order to clip the bolt you actually have to avoid placing pro, use long slings, or add rope drag to the climb. the first bolt is too low for the actual route. There is no ground fall potential unless you do not place pro, and this can be said of every route in the world.

where exactly are you placing gear before the 2nd bolt? on mammalian? i don't agree with ur assessments.

in any case, i have not heard consensus about this issue so i would suggest holding off taking any action for the season and let everyone have their go. it's not like it's going anywhere. i'm not saying i'm gonna fight for them to stay but i don't think chopping them right now helps the situation.

how're those bolts on pyramid wall (anubis is it)? they still there?

[coryhal]

basically most of the saint john climbers, and several moncton climbers would like to see it removed. Ive seen several 5.10 climbers avoid that bolt.

[Dom]

basically most of the saint john climbers, and several moncton climbers would like to see it removed. Ive seen several 5.10 climbers avoid that bolt.

Moncton climbers? we need names here...

I know some that are glad there is 2 bolts there....

I also know some who would bolt all of Cochrane Lane...hehe crazy gumbies

I led Sticky Fingers when the old bolt was there and there was definitely groundfall potential...glad Adam retro-bolted it my 2cents. Everybody is entitled to its opinion though

[anderfo]

BTW, all the Norwegian climbers support this bolt.

Not because we know anything about Sticky fingers (it's not the Compressor route, is it?), but because we think it's stupid to destroy such a beautiful piece of metal, especially when it doesn't even have any sign of rust yet and the bolt hanger is still not loose.

[Adam]

basically most of the saint john climbers, and several moncton climbers would like to see it removed. Ive seen several 5.10 climbers avoid that bolt.

not that i doubt u Cory or Steve, i'm sure there are people on both sides of this issue, but people need to speak up for themselves.

[STeveA]

The old bolt was below where the new 2nd bolt is. If there is that much gear on that section then chop both bolts

I agree with Adam. Lets chop both bolts.

[Pierre]

basically most of the saint john climbers, and several moncton climbers would like to see it removed. Ive seen several 5.10 climbers avoid that bolt.

Moncton climbers? we need names here...

I know some that are glad there is 2 bolts there....

I also know some who would bolt all of Cochrane Lane...hehe crazy gumbies

I led Sticky Fingers when the old bolt was there and there was definitely groundfall potential...glad Adam retro-bolted it my 2cents. Everybody is entitled to its opinion though

Hey Dom...

Ask me tonight! I'll give you some names.

Pierre

[Adam]

The old bolt was below where the new 2nd bolt is. If there is that much gear on that section then chop both bolts

I agree with Adam. Lets chop both bolts.

i think Steve's working on his trolling skillz?

[Fred]

Adam:

Thank you for taking the time to replace an old rusty bolt and making the route safer.

Peace

Fred

[john]

I vote chop it and make it as close to the way don intended it as possible.

I too agree there is no groundfall potential there.

[*Chris*]

I don't believe either should be removed.

[motanb]

I'm gonna hop on this route next time up to the lane . I agree with Steve on the notion of an anchor on top of sticky fingers. In case of unwarranted bolts? My attitude is: I'll skip a bolt if i feel safe or competent enough to do so; even if I don't think a bolt necessary I don't feel the need to chop it (or endorse chopping 'em)... I'll just skip it. To me it just seems fair to leave in someone's efforts to improve the safety of a route despite opposition otherwise. I don't expect everyone to have the same style or approach to climbing or anything else for that matter. With that said, it's obvious that one cannot just do what he/she wants to. Each case should be considered for it's own distinctual context. With sticky fingers I'd say the added bolt detracts very little from the experience of the climb.

Anyhow, that's my two cents:-)

[Greg]

Imagine what would happen if the curator of the Louvre announced that he was going to make some ‘improvements’ to the Mona Lisa……..“You know I think that Leo missed a brush stroke here and maybe another there so I’ll just touch it up a bit to make it better…...”

The artist’s legacy should be preserved.

The rock is the canvas and the first ascensionist is the painter of the route. If you don’t like the Mona Lisa don’t look at it…..if you don’t like Don’s route with just one bolt - don’t climb it. Top rope it or lead it when you are ready.

[Lucas]

I climbed this route this weekend, found pro and did not clip the first bolt. The bolt needs to go...and, just for the record, I am a 5.10 climber.

[*Chris*]

Imagine what would happen if the curator of the Louvre announced that he was going to make some ‘improvements’ to the Mona Lisa……..“You know I think that Leo missed a brush stroke here and maybe another there so I’ll just touch it up a bit to make it better…...”

The artist’s legacy should be preserved.

The rock is the canvas and the first ascensionist is the painter of the route. If you don’t like the Mona Lisa don’t look at it…..if you don’t like Don’s route with just one bolt - don’t climb it. Top rope it or lead it when you are ready.

Paintings are restored all the time... the trick is to not change it's character. Please remember that Adam started all this by chopping an old rusted bolt and replacing it with a new one. That effort is something for which he should be thanked. That he replaced one bolt with two in quick succession was a judgement which I believe he made with safety in mind given the rock quality, and the potential for decking with a botched clip. I don't think he saw potential for bomber gear anywhere nearby (that now others are finding). If clipping two quick bolts down low on this line has seriously detracted from your experience than perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees.

[STeveA]

I think it is great that people are taking the time and making an effort to clean up old routes and replace aging bolts. However, it takes a lot more time to create a route in the first place. Therefore, the first creation should have more respect than any clean up job. The fact that newer climbers are losing the skill of nutcraft does not justify adding bolts. There is no ground fall potential on this route, unless you decide (or do not have some basic skill) not to place pro. The creator of this climb would not thank you for making his route safer.

[Adam]

ok, some of you are saying that there is gear but i've asked repeatedly WHERE and no one is answering. there was ALREADY a bolt there so OBVIOUSLY there is NO GEAR THERE.

there is a crack at the roof, and that is the LAST PIECE of gear till u clip the bolt. if that was your last piece, and you were pulling up slack to clip the old bolt, or the new '2nd' bolt, and popped off at that point you are going to hit the ground. yeah, if your belayer is really good u might not quite hit the deck, but it is close enough to make me consider putting the bolt in in the first place.

back up your opinions with concrete information otherwise it isn't helping the discussion.

[Adam]

The creator of this climb would not thank you for making his route safer.

Steve, regardless of whether you knew Don, you don't have the right to speak for him. He has passed and so the route has been inherited by the community. Let's stick to facts here instead of injecting sentiment. Thanks.

[STeveA]

There are horizontal cracks above the roof that take pro (Tri cams work really well) and vertical cracks to the right. The bolt was placed because the next move to the horizontal crack above the bolt is tricky and if you fell before placing pro then, you would have a good fall.

I realize that Don might have changed his opinion about gear placement if he were still alive, however I am comfortable speaking for him based on his opinions at the time the climb was established.

[Joe]

The route was climbed by several people on Sunday, no one used the lower bolt, and most found gear near it. I used a zero cam in a horizontal crack about 20 inches to the right and slightly lower than the first bolt.

[Dom]

Maybe this could be used hehehe... http://vimeo.com/10674868

[Greg]

Paintings are restored all the time... the trick is to not change it's character. Please remember that Adam started all this by chopping an old rusted bolt and replacing it with a new one. That effort is something for which he should be thanked. That he replaced one bolt with two in quick succession was a judgement which I believe he made with safety in mind given the rock quality, and the potential for decking with a botched clip. I don't think he saw potential for bomber gear anywhere nearby (that now others are finding). If clipping two quick bolts down low on this line has seriously detracted from your experience than perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees.

The issue is that the route has been altered beyond what the FA would likely have approved of. I doubt that someone who had a flair for spice would want to see his route have an extra bolt added to it.

[*Chris*]

The issue is that the route has been altered beyond what the FA would likely have approved of. I doubt that someone who had a flair for spice would want to see his route have an extra bolt added to it.

I agree that there are very strong points to be made on both sides of this issue. Given the new info about the available gear and the view of the FA I'm not sure where I sit. I just wanted to raise the point that rusty bolt replacement is a valuable effort, which Adam volunteers his time and cash to do. I just can't rake a man through the coals for that kind of thing. I think it generally sends the wrong message.

[STeveA]

Maybe this could be used hehehe... http://vimeo.com/10674868

Nice thing about those is that at 3/4" you could use the bolt hole as a finger pocket as well.

[STeveA]

I just wanted to raise the point that rusty bolt replacement is a valuable effort, which Adam volunteers his time and cash to do. I just can't rake a man through the coals for that kind of thing. I think it generally sends the wrong message.

I am also pleased to see people willing to give up their time and money to clean routes and replace bolts. It does take an effort and should be recognized.

[GregH]

I haven't been on this site in ages..... since I no longer live in NB but I'm gonna pipe in anyway from the left coast because this hit a nerve. Who's the wuss that added a second bolt to Sticky Fingers? I'll back SteveA up on this. Don B would NOT approve. For those of us that knew Don we can speak for him because we climbed with him and knew his style. I'm proud to say I was good friend of Don's so I'll stand up for the way he climbed (even though sometimes it scared the absolute crap out of me). In that vein I'll stand up for the way he did the FA of Sticky Fingers. Just because someone has passed doesn't mean the style in which the FA was done shouldn't be protected!! FWIW I vividly remember a horizontal crack that takes perfect pro. BOMBER!! It's been like a 100 years since I've climbed the route but me being the weakling that I was (and still am), I sure as heck wouldn't have climbed it as many times as I did unless it was safe. It might be spicy but it is safe. Big deal. SteveA...... since I'm no longer a local I'll chop the bolt when I'm home this summer.... Hopefully someone will have got to it before me.

[Adam]

I haven't been on this site in ages..... since I no longer live in NB but I'm gonna pipe in anyway from the left coast because this hit a nerve. Who's the wuss that added a second bolt to Sticky Fingers? I'll back SteveA up on this. Don B would NOT approve. For those of us that knew Don we can speak for him because we climbed with him and knew his style. I'm proud to say I was good friend of Don's so I'll stand up for the way he climbed (even though sometimes it scared the absolute crap out of me). In that vein I'll stand up for the way he did the FA of Sticky Fingers. Just because someone has passed doesn't mean the style in which the FA was done shouldn't be protected!! FWIW I vividly remember a horizontal crack that takes perfect pro. BOMBER!! It's been like a 100 years since I've climbed the route but me being the weakling that I was (and still am), I sure as heck wouldn't have climbed it as many times as I did unless it was safe. It might be spicy but it is safe. Big deal. SteveA...... since I'm no longer a local I'll chop the bolt when I'm home this summer.... Hopefully someone will have got to it before me.

Hi Greg, I'm the wuss who added the bolt. I'm going up there today to reclimb it and see if I still think it is safe w/o the 1st bolt. Feel free to go back and take the time to read the reasoning behind it. If it is to be removed it'll be removed, however, I still put absolutely no weight behind u guys 'speaking' for someone who is not with us anymore. You can relate to us the way he climbed in his day and how u think he might react today but to say you have the right to speak for someone is going too far. Stick to your own opinions, do not speculate on those of someone else and expect others to believe u.

I mean, hell SteveA you bolted a sh!tty @ss route in welsford (anubis) that shouldn't even have taken bolts ... do you think twenty years ago you would have done something like that? bolting a crack??? Doubtful. People change and so do the times. If Don were around I would have gotten permission. He's not tho, and you guys are not him and are not the owners of the rock - it belongs to the community now and thus it is left up to that community to decide. The route's nature really is unchanged and I *would* debate that, however I'm not going to fight to keep the bolt if the route is still safe w/o it.

If anyone goes chopping it vigilante style then I'd say you're a coward for not confronting people in person about it and hiding behind this forum. I said repeatedly in the fall I would willingly buy a round and discuss the merits of the bolt but no one was willing to discuss it outside this forum. Sack up beaver.