Ice Gear advice wanted

[Andrew]

This year I want to get started with Ice Climbing.

I would welcome advice on what Ice Tools, Crampons and Boots to consider and any tips, etc. on Ice gear in general would be great.

Specifically, I am wondering about ice boots. I've seen plastic boots and leather/synthetic boots for sale. What are the pros and cons of each? If I could hike to the ice in the boots I'm going to climb in, that would save alot of trouble. Currently, I have downhill ski-boots that work fine; however, obviously you cannot walk in them and are a little ill-suited for the specific sport of ice climbing.

I've had various climbers say Petzl Nomics are the pinnacle of Ice Tools.

I may try and buy some of this gear used due to the very high price of them all to get quality items.

Andrew

[chossmonkey]

Get used gear if you can. Depending on the approach you could try hiking out in normal boots and then wear the ski boots while at the cliff. Boots are normally the biggest obstacle to getting started. Its easy to share all the other gear.

As to tools start off leashless. That doesn't necessarily mean nomics, just anything with a pinky rest. Leashes do feel more secure, but they are a pain in the ass once you start leading. Once you get accustomed to leashless you won't look back.

[martha]

You will find Leather boots more comfortable than the double plastics but perhaps not as warm. Rambo Crampons are the way to go and there are several generations of them and they can occasionally be found on the MEC Gear Swap.

I think that beyond boots/crampons, that the proper outer wear is crucial.... good gortex/scholler/down coat/pants/gloves etc.... can make or break a day of ice climbing. Nothing is worse than being cold and wet.

[Charley]

I might suggest from personal experience starting off with (if you can find them in good condition) a used pair of plastic boots. Rather like your first pair of rock climbing shoes, that were fairly comfortable but usually not a super-high performance specific-brand-for-specific-features purchase, it's nice to get used to the movement of ice climbing and demands placed on your footwear, while your feet are comfortable and warm. Then once you have an idea what you need to look for in a boot you can start to shop around and upgrade.

[Fred]

Step 1 : Proper clothing is essential. Apply in layers. Poly pro or merino wool undershirt and long johns, then fleece, then gore tex shell pants and jacket, and a down jacket to take along in your bag. Get some smart wool socks and leave all cottons at home.

Step 2 : There are three types of boots; double plastics, insulated leather, and non-insulated leather. Given the long approaches and moderate climate of NB I would recommend insulated leathers. Double plastics will be uncomfortable on long approaches and non-insulated will be cold in our climate.

Step 3 : Crampons before ice tools because these are more difficult to share with other climbers. Try to find a used pair on gear swap... Front and rear bails are essential. That is, don't get ones that are only held on with straps like the ones for glacier travel.

Step 4 : Ice tools are like women, you want to try them out before you settle down with one. Used ones with lots of experience will get you through the winter but eventually you'll want something you can break-in yourself. In the beginning, keep em on a leash, but once you've gotten some mileage on em, cutting them loose can be a lot of fun. At first, until you can keep them under control, your belay partners will appreciate you using leashes.

Step 5 : If you succeed with 1 through 4 and don't have recurring thoughts of "why am I doing this" you may want to venture off into ice screws. You'll need at least a 100 of these but no worries, you can go back in the spring to pick them all up again. Or so this is what Cara thought when she started climbing.

Hope this helps.

[Stacey]

Step 4 : Ice tools are like women, you want to try them out before you settle down with one. Used ones with lots of experience will get you through the winter but eventually you'll want something you can break-in yourself. In the beginning, keep em on a leash, but once you've gotten some mileage on em, cutting them loose can be a lot of fun. At first, until you can keep them under control, your belay partners will appreciate you using leashes.

OMG - I think I might have peed myself just a little bit - -

Fred - this is hilarious! - - enjoy Andrew

[martha]

Step 4 : Ice tools are like women, you want to try them out before you settle down with one. Used ones with lots of experience will get you through the winter but eventually you'll want something you can break-in yourself. In the beginning, keep em on a leash, but once you've gotten some mileage on em, cutting them loose can be a lot of fun. At first, until you can keep them under control, your belay partners will appreciate you using leashes.

I wonder if this means that either A. I am getting traded for a newer version... or B. I am going to get let off my leash.

[granite_grrl]

I'll throw in my two cents.

It's nice if you can get the boots, because other things can be borrowed. Look around on the MEC gear swap, ask around. I got my first pair of boots pretty cheap and were great while I was starting. I later realized they didn't fit me very well, but I got more than my moneys worth out of them at that point and figure I'll be able to sell them for something close to what I bought them for (if you have size 42 feet I'll give you a slamming deal on a pair of boots).

In terms of tools: I don't think there's such a thing as the pinnicle of ice tools. The best ice tool is the one that suits your style of climbing well and swings well for you. Probably better not to rush into this. I agree with Nathan though about the leashes. We both started off leashless (on the old style BD Vipers) and super happy that we did.

[Stacey]

Step 4 : Ice tools are like women, you want to try them out before you settle down with one. Used ones with lots of experience will get you through the winter but eventually you'll want something you can break-in yourself. In the beginning, keep em on a leash, but once you've gotten some mileage on em, cutting them loose can be a lot of fun. At first, until you can keep them under control, your belay partners will appreciate you using leashes.

I wonder if this means that either A. I am getting traded for a newer version... or B. I am going to get let off my leash.

Think Freddie is ready for Cara off her leash? ? ? ROAR baby

[*Chris*]

I wonder if this means that either A. I am getting traded for a newer version... or B. I am going to get let off my leash.

Jill is always saying she's trading me in for a 19 year old version of me. Idle threats.

Andrew, the above advice is great. The only thing I can add is that proper fitting double plastic boots can be quite comfortable. I don't mind approaches in mine in the least. If you are planning on buying from the Gearswap, try to figure out your size for each brand ahead of time. Fit is important. Too loose and you'll pulverize your toes... too tight and your toes will freeze.

Sometime Burley may return to climbing. When he sees this post he can write you a short chapter on his vapour barrier sock system which he swears by. I'll leave that to him.

Finally... dogs eat boot liners left unattended. My dog is generally well behaved at home but a sweat soaked boot liner is just irresistible I guess. Gnawed.

[martha]

Jill is always saying she's trading me in for a 19 year old version of me. Idle threats.

That would be very silly of Fred. a 19 year old version of me wouldn't be nearly as well trained.

Andrew, I agree with all this. The boots are really the most important. I have the La Sportiva L'hotse and I rather like them. They weren't my first choice, but I found them on sale in North Conway for $130 USD.... so couldn't really say no. I prefer my leathers over the double plastics that I had, but I have a fairly narrow heel so got a lot of slippage in the liner of the plastics which made for terrible 'heels down' action while climbing.

I don't know what Burleys sock system is, but I know that I like a very thin wool (smart wool) liner sock under a regular Smart Wool thick 'ultra hiker' and it works great. Also, how you tie your boots (if you have a leather) can make a huge impact. Width is as important as length, and if when you tie your shoes they pucker around the laces (especially near the toe) then the boot/shoe is too wide and you'll never be happy. Every brand is different and you'll find somehting that works. Also there are 101 things you can do with insoles to adjust fit, comfort etc to make an 'almost' perfect fit to be 100% perfect.

[Fred]

Sometime Burley may return to climbing.

Is it too early to make an offer on his gear!!

[buzzard]

Just a thought. I hear a lot about gear swap but don't forget there is a ton of good used gear on e-bay. I have bought boots, vipers, screws and binners on e-bay and have not been let down yet.

Can't wait for the ice to come back

[Andrew]

Anyone have any suggestions on good leashless ice tools?

[granite_grrl]

Anyone have any suggestions on good leashless ice tools?

It really depends on your style, what kind of ice you'll be climbing, if you're going to get into the mixed and drytooling stuff. If it's just going to be ice then something like the new style Vipers would be a fine tool to start with and won't break the bank. Another good tool to start with would be the Reactors.

Best if you can get out and try a few people's tools, and look around online at what's available and what appeals to you.

[martha]

You really need to try tools out. Fred has the Vipers and I can't stand them. HATE THEM. They just don't swing well for me. (all 'swings like a girl' jokes aside LOL)

However, the Quarks are AMAZING for me. It is all a personal thing really. So long as you don't bash in the tips, no one usually minds lending their tools out for trial runs.

[granite_grrl]

You really need to try tools out. Fred has the Vipers and I can't stand them. HATE THEM. They just don't swing well for me. (all 'swings like a girl' jokes aside LOL)

However, the Quarks are AMAZING for me. It is all a personal thing really. So long as you don't bash in the tips, no one usually minds lending their tools out for trial runs.

The old Vipers have less pick angle than the new ones. I have the old ones too and I feel like you really have to drive them (which is often overdriving them) to get a secure feel. I doubt the new ones would be anywhere near this bad, but I have to admit that I haven't actually tried them.

And FWIW Cara, I do swing like a girl . Probably one of the reasons I didn't do that well with the old Vipers either.

[Stacey]

Anyone have any suggestions on good leashless ice tools?

I have the Madame Hook's leashless tools, and though I have only used them on a dry-tool route, I love them.
I got Greg the Black Diamond Reactors and had planned on getting them too but ended up with the Madame Hooks...but I love his reactors as well...

Stace

[Stan]

Anyone have any suggestions on good leashless ice tools?

Finding good tools that will fit you is a matter of trial and error. Personally, I hate how BD Vipers swing. Quarks work more or less ok for me. Nomics have T-rated picks that don't stick very well on pure ice (tried 'em only a couple times though). Got Grivel Taakoons last winter - like them a lot so far.

[theriault]

. Nomics have T-rated picks that don't stick very well on pure ice (tried 'em only a couple times though).

Theres a new pic for Nomics, Is the Cascade pic for pure ice with a 4mm head and 3mm point they should fix that prob.!

[Andrew]

** UPDATE **

I picked up a pair of Petzl Nomics on the net last night. Got a good deal. They come with the default pic and since this is really my first season of ice climbing, I will try them as they are for now. If I find I need a different pic, I will go with Ulysse's suggestion and Theriault's and get the Cascade pic.

Also, ordered a pair of Grivel Rambo 4 crampons from MEC.

Next is boots and I'm working on that. Worse comes to worse, I have ski boots and they worked fine vertically when I last used them for ice, but I understand they are not exactly the best choice

Thanks for the help everyone.

I'll entertain any suggestions on boots or any general ice climbing tips... favorite areas to go.

I know of the existence and rough location of Parlee Brooke and have climbed at Minister's Face and Waterfall Wall. Surely there are other awesome spots.

[Shawn B]

Andrew...before you pull the trigger and buy tools try a bunch of different ones. Good to get others' opinions but your's is the one that matters. Buy used everything except screws if you can (so long as you know its history). Then if you don't like it you don't have much invested and if you do over the next few years you can replace slowly with new and sell the used for only a bit less than you paid. Try boots on before you buy.

Be cautious about following the poor advice to go with a leashless tool. Get a tool that has the option to add a quick release leash. Vipers, quarks and the cadillac of all, the cobra, all have a nice clean leash system and work relatively good leashless if you so desire.

[Shawn B]

Oops....I mean get the Nomics...they are awesome.

[Andrew]

LOL. It's all good. We'll see what happens. I have swung leashless before and liked it alot better than leashed. Now lets get some ice forming so the season can start Side of the highway climbing included.

Oops....I mean get the Nomics...they are awesome.

[Fred]

The Nomics and Rambo4's are my weapons of choice. I'm jealous since I don't have Nomics only Rambo4's!

Beware, you may have difficulty fitting the Rambo 4's on your ski boots. They are very asymmetric and barely fit my LaSportiva. Just a thought.

See you on the ice Andrew!!

[Andrew]

I picked up some Salomon Super Mountain 9's (used) today. They seem to fit well and are my size. Lets hope those crampons fit.

I should have all my gear in about 10 days or less.

See you on the ice, Fred!

[granite_grrl]

The Nomic is a solid tool. I don't think there's going to be much worry about buying before trying, if you've never swung a tool before it's likely that once you learn on those tools it'll be your preference.

Try the leashless for a little bit, if you find you still want leashes then it's always possible to put some on the Nomics. I've never seen anyone do it, but it should be easy to set them up for it.

Congrats on the new shwag, hope you really enjoy it.

[Matt Peck]

I picked up some Android leashes for super cheap at the latest gearswap and they mate to the nomics just fine as long as you tighten down the collar really well. Im still pro leashless, but they're handy for long routes. I also have one of the new BD rotor umbellicals which Im going to figure out an attachment for the nomics, just to see how they work. At first glance they appear kind of short.
Good job on getting boots Andrew, It looked like you were going about the gear-getting back-asswards there for a bit, but now that you have the most important part, you can sit back and enjoy. no boots = crazy. Enjoy the nomics. I find they swing just fine in water ice with the headweight on. And you'll appreciate the versatility on the rock. Just bevel the underside of your picks to almost a point for the first 5-6 teeth. Make sure you leave the first tooth a little flat for sure though. I've filed my picks back past the first tooth and into the second (just under cut it a little to re-shape it) and they're still swinging fine. Once we get into the fat part of the season, I'll switch to my new picks, but for now they're great.

[szymiec]

If you just want climb water ice then you should go with Nomic ice tools and crampons with vertical front points.

If you ever plan to go into the alpine then you might consider getting a rig a little more versatile such as Quarks & a horizontal front point crampon, not aluminum though. To bad the Skarkens are gone. Actually, its probably a good thing. I broke off 3 points this year on K2 and as my crap luck would have it, the recall period was over. argghhhh!

La Sportiva Nepals are a good solid boot that will last you. Plastics are best for multi day/week trips. Over boots are soooooo 90's. Kayland boots fall apart and the warranty sucks. Also, i know through the grape vine that Scarpa is coming out with a new boot line soon. You may want to wait.

hope this helps man, do it!
Chris

[szymiec]

Step 4 : Ice tools are like women, you want to try them out before you settle down with one. Used ones with lots of experience will get you through the winter but eventually you'll want something you can break-in yourself. In the beginning, keep em on a leash, but once you've gotten some mileage on em, cutting them loose can be a lot of fun. At first, until you can keep them under control, your belay partners will appreciate you using leashes

Hey Fred, i seem to remember posting something very similar to this myself a couple of years ago and you deleted it! Grrr, are you becoming more of an advocate for free speech? I must admit though, your metaphor is much more elegant than mine. I am still trying to decipher the parallels of the belay partner though. Hmmm.

C