stickey fingers

[coryhal]

why was a second bolt placed on sticket fingers, it doesent make sense to me

[STeveA]

Where is the second bolt placed? This would be a no no unless someone has contacted the FA.

[coryhal]

its 3 feet below the original, and theres still rock dust under the bolt. the fa probably wasent contacted since don belliveau put up the line

[Stacey]

its 3 feet below the original, and theres still rock dust under the bolt. the fa probably wasent contacted since don belliveau put up the line

probably

[STeveA]

It should be interesting to find out who placed it and why. Is it intended to replace the existing one?

[Adam]

I placed it.

The original was rusted through and was chopped. i was going to replace with a single bolt and while i was on rappel ready to do it, multiple experienced climbers agreed that the single bolt would be best replaced with two since when clipping the original bolt if you slipped you would deck. both new bolts are to the left of the original, so are both further away from mammalian than the original. the first is a foot below and left, the second three feet above and left. neither can be replaced with natural gear.

I admit, I did not contact the FA. It was a decision made at the time and I knew there could be backlash. I have not been hiding it however, and have been telling people that I felt would have an opinion. Thus far NO ONE has said anything negative to me. The route's nature really has not been altered IMHO. It merely is safer through the first 30'.

If anyone wants to discuss in person I am more than willing to buy a round at the rogue and hash things out.

cheers

[*Chris*]

If anyone wants to discuss in person I am more than willing to buy a round at the rogue and hash things out.

cheers

In that case... I'd like to discuss this with you in person!

[Stacey]

If anyone wants to discuss in person I am more than willing to buy a round at the rogue and hash things out.

cheers

In that case... I'd like to discuss this with you in person!

me too - can we go on wing night?

[Shawn B]

Can't make the rogue but how 'bout we hash it out here and you send me $ for a 6 pack?


Seriously...it is my opinion that it is a good re-bolt. The old bolt was due to be replaced and from what Adam said rusted more than just on the surface. I''ve always thought the original bolt was poorly placed. If you blow it getting to or clipping that bolt you are looking at ground fall (not real hard climbing but not necessarily the most secure climbing or clipping holds). The new one can now be clipped when standing on the jug above the roof. A second one slightly higher than the original was needed to prevent ground fall when getting to the next possible gear placement. The 'goods" of this climb are not affected whatsoever by this change. It does not eliminate the need for any gear placement. It just better protects and prevents ground fall through the "worst" climbing on the route. I heard Adam searching out solid rock for re-bolting and not sure if this weighed on the placements as well. Having them moved left also removes any arguement for encroachment on Mamallian.

[*Chris*]

Ok, in all seriousness...

I was there during Adam's rebolt effort. Shawn summed up the logic pretty well. Adam's once again done a service to the community.

Disclaimer: I've not yet led this route but am much more likely to now.

[Greg]

I placed it.

The original was rusted through and was chopped. i was going to replace with a single bolt and while i was on rappel ready to do it, multiple experienced climbers agreed that the single bolt would be best replaced with two since when clipping the original bolt if you slipped you would deck. both new bolts are to the left of the original, so are both further away from mammalian than the original. the first is a foot below and left, the second three feet above and left. neither can be replaced with natural gear.

I admit, I did not contact the FA. It was a decision made at the time and I knew there could be backlash. I have not been hiding it however, and have been telling people that I felt would have an opinion. Thus far NO ONE has said anything negative to me. The route's nature really has not been altered IMHO. It merely is safer through the first 30'.

If anyone wants to discuss in person I am more than willing to buy a round at the rogue and hash things out.

cheers

Too bad you rebolted it. You should have just chopped the rusty bolt and left it that way. I'm sure the whole thing can be safely led on gear alone.

[Adam]

Too bad you rebolted it. You should have just chopped the rusty bolt and left it that way. I'm sure the whole thing can be safely led on gear alone.

my sarcasm spidey senses are tingling....

[Stacey]

Too bad you rebolted it. You should have just chopped the rusty bolt and left it that way. I'm sure the whole thing can be safely led on gear alone.

my sarcasm spidey senses are tingling....

isn't 'tingly' a good sensation?

[coryhal]

i dont think " safty" is a good enough reason to change someones existing route, perhaps Don liked to keep some excitement in his routes. placing a bolt on the runout of human erazer direct would completly ruin the route. as a climber u should bring your skills up to the level of the climbs, not the climbs down to you.

[Adam]

i dont think " safty" is a good enough reason to change someones existing route, perhaps Don liked to keep some excitement in his routes. placing a bolt on the runout of human erazer direct would completly ruin the route. as a climber u should bring your skills up to the level of the climbs, not the climbs down to you.

Don brought the route down to his level when he put the one bolt there. that bolt needed replacing. are you waiving your right to a free beer?

[Shawn B]

i dont think " safty" is a good enough reason to change someones existing route, perhaps Don liked to keep some excitement in his routes. placing a bolt on the runout of human erazer direct would completly ruin the route. as a climber u should bring your skills up to the level of the climbs, not the climbs down to you.

A bolt through the crux on human eraser would change the character & commitment of that climb. This does not. Gear will still have to be placed as before to avoid a serious consequence fall. If the bolt were added up through the middle of the traverse where there were gear options then it would be different.

[john]

My opinion: i dont agree with this at all. It does change the original route. if Don wanted it that way its the way he saw fit, why should someone else change it now.

john

[Dom]

I'm glad you put them a little to the left of where the original bolt was...I thought it was too much to the right when I led it this summer.

It's funny that this has gone under the radar for close to a month now. I guess it's November...hehe but that's not really a reason as there was better climbing in November than in October this year...

Btw Sticky fingers is written without an ''e'' . couldn't help it...I love the Rolling Stones..

[Stacey]

My opinion: i dont agree with this at all. It does change the original route. if Don wanted it that way its the way he saw fit, why should someone else change it now.

john

so do 'ethics' say that if the FA is deceased or for some reason not able to be contacted...that routes should NEVER be altered?

That doesn't seem to make sense.

[coryhal]

so do 'ethics' say that if the FA is deceased or for some reason not able to be contacted...that routes should NEVER be altered?

correct.

[motanb]

Nice work Adam;-)

I don't see a problem with slamming in some bolts for the sake of safety. Besides, the real character of the climb stays the same i.e. the moving over the stone. One opposed to the bolts can skip 'em or clip 'em; but for those who need 'em.. there there!

[anderfo]

lots of strange discussions about bolts in this forum.
go climbing instead, or have a beer with adam. both options are more fun.

[martha]

or have a beer with adam.

Especially since he's buying!

[Stacey]

One opposed to the bolts can skip 'em or clip 'em; but for those who need 'em.. there there!

Ingenious Tom -- imagine the thoughts of just NOT using them if you don't 'need' them.

[*Chris*]

So do 'ethics' say that if the FA is deceased or for some reason not able to be contacted...that routes should NEVER be altered?

correct.

Unacceptable.

[martha]

I don't see a problem with slamming in some bolts for the sake of safety.

Would you feel this way about some of your routes? There has been talk of more bolts on Strata Factor as some people find that to be unsafe....

just sayin'. .....

[Adam]

so do 'ethics' say that if the FA is deceased or for some reason not able to be contacted...that routes should NEVER be altered?

correct.

This might be the 'ideal', but the real world doesn't work like this. The bolt needed to come out. According to your logic, it should not have been replaced at all since we're then altering his original vision. I didn't bolt a crack, I replaced an aged, dangerous bolt with two good ones. I understand you want to keep people from doing whatever they want to people's routes, and so do I, but this decision was made after deliberation between experienced climbers and thus far has been received overwhelmingly positively. I appreciate your views on this and am just trying to help you understand why it was done.

Note, Cory by continuing to discuss on here you've waived your right to a free beer.

[STeveA]

I'm glad you put them a little to the left of where the original bolt was...I thought it was too much to the right when I led it this summer.

From what I remember the route goes straight up from the original bolt to a horizontal crack. Then you angle up and left to the vertical crack. I do not remember the bolt being off to the right of the route.

I made the first onsight of this route just after Don had completed and led the climb. I don't think a bolt lower down will change the flavor of the route since the spicy part is above. However, Don definitely intended the route to be exciting. I remember watching him lead the Pink Panther with a total of 3 pieces of pro, and 2 of them were on the first 20'. This was normal for Don so his routes should reflect his style. Even if the FA is dead there are probably people around who can provide input into the intended style of a route.

[Adam]

From what I remember the route goes straight up from the original bolt to a horizontal crack. Then you angle up and left to the vertical crack. I do not remember the bolt being off to the right of the route.

you're correct the bolt is not 'too the right', but if it were replaced any further right then it would start encroaching on mammalian.

the rock around the original bolt was suspect (well, kinda hollow sounding) on the left of the bolt and solid on the right. the two bolts now are in uber-solid rock.

[Nihoa]

the only way to bolt fairly is in a systematic grid.