DDT

[Fred]

It has been brought to my attention that the bolts on DDT are too close to Some Enchanted Evening and they compromise the local ethics since gear can be placed in the nearby crack. Before I go out and chop the bolts I want to poll the audience and open the floor for discussion. Don't be shy to voice your opinion.

[Adam]

leave them. it's a different line... maybe a little close but if you're on SEE then place gear. if you're on DDT then clip the bolts.

why take them out at this point... dozens of people have climbed that route now and all i've heard is praise.

[*Chris*]

The lines are indeed close but what's done is done. DDT is a very nice finish to astroboy direct. There are similar examples elsewhere which are not being considered for the chop [cough]waterfall layback[/cough]. Who's rapping your knuckles Fred?

[Greg]

Some Enchanted Evening is an okay route on average quality granite that appears to get very little traffic. DDT is an awesome route on high quality stone that will see lots of traffic. I think the bolts are fine where they are and do not compromise anything. Chopping the bolts would only scar the cliff. I say leave em be.

[john]

I think the bolts on DDT should be taken out, you can lead that arete easily reaching into the crack for gear, it changes the character of some enchanted evening, Simon the guy with me, took all the draws off from the crack on the lower arete. The climbing was ok, but you can place from the arete. At least the bolts should be around left, out of reach. I dont think that is acceptable at all. The next two bolts are beside a questionable, above the lower arete are beside a bomber flake and the last top out bolt has gear the same height, on the right of the block. The bolts on the top of the block are good.

It was a good initiative, but the route was forced and compromises Cochrane Lane ethics, bolts by cracks and easily within reach of a 3 star and safe trad route? I was super physced about it, don't get me worng, but after climbing it I am disappointed and worried about the message it sends. It may be ok for Sunnyside since it was established as such, but not cochrane lane in my, where the ethics have been established as Trad if possible. It does not make sense to me. No offense intended, email always seems harsh.

The part that bugs me is not the bolts but the fact you can still do ddt on gear, placing in the crack safely and from the crack you can clip all the bolts. It has been long established at cochrane lane that if a crack exists you don't put bolts within reach especially on an existing route. I am not saying "plasir" routes have no place jut that they are not placed within reach of other routes with good gear options.

jb

[Adam]

you can lead that arete easily reaching into the crack for gear

if your hand is in that crack then you should place gear... if you're on the arete proper you cannot easily place gear in the crack IMHO.

It has been long established at cochrane lane that if a crack exists you don't put bolts within reach

i would ask why there is a bolt on sticky fingers then... since there is gear three feet to the right on mammalian. and since there is gear on the right, that section of sticky fingers would be 'forced' and against local ethics...

[Stacey]

I say that you should leave them. The only reason everyone is now up there climbing is because of this great new route. Those who are opposed to the bolts can ignore them and place gear ...

Some Enchanted Evening isn't a classic line in Welsford - - DDT has the potential to be a classical line and is already a 3 thumbs up from everyone who has climbed it!

Leave the bolts please....

Stacey

[john]

simply ignoring bolts beside a crack and not clipping them is an old argument people made years ago and it was decided by the community that it was a slippery slope and therefore generally accepted in welsford not to bolt within reach of a crack or established route. This route violates both those ethics, why should this be an exception? The bolts change the experience.

I am just standing up for those who came before and established the place and ethic. I mention that here, since some newer climbers may not know that perspective about this area. Is bolting a variation between warm and sultry and its neighbor acceptable, is it more acceptable because it draws traffic? A bolt was added there and was removed as i recall?

[*Chris*]

Yeah? I have another slippery slope for you... How long must one climb in this area before they are no longer labelled 'new' and dismissed out of hand? Is Fred a new climber? Are you? Is Adam? Am I? Who specifically decided these ethics which we must abide by and when will it be acceptable to question their position?

[Joe]

Ahhh... an interesting dilemma. Yes, I too was a bit surprised how close the bolts were to a good crack - certainly out of the ordinary for Cochrane Lane. But it's also surprising how damn popular bolts are - bolts definately draw a crowd, hence the popularity of DDT.

Fred, I thought there was a 5.10ish route up the outside face of the totem. I know it's a lot of work, but would it be possible to relocate the bolts around the arete to the outside face? It would also make for much more airey climbing.

Currently I suspect most climbers use the big flake on the right and climb a portion of ESS to finish DDT. Traditionally leading this crack is less difficult than the Astroboy crack, so removing the bolts by the crack shouldn't be a big deal, should it? While I'm all for new developments, I still agree with John that we should protect our local ethics, much like Catherdal in North Conway. The rule of thumb is that you shouldn't be able to clip a bolt while on a traditional climb. I support that ethic.

[Andrew]

Maybe from now on, there should be a discussion with the community before bolting new lines on The Lane.

This may reduce the amount of bolts being ripped out and permanently scaring the rocks.

My thoughts are also that the bolts should stay and we can all learn from this, rather than scaring the rocks.

My 2c+tax

[Fred]

I think we should also discuss removing the 4 bolt anchors since the local ethics of Welsford also state that bolt anchors should only be used where natural protection or trees are not available.

[martha]

There are many routes that fall into this category with DDT (which I have not yet had the pleasure of climbing) you *could* place gear or vice versa on Leviathan, Strata Factor, J'ai Vole ta Blonde and others that have already been mentioned.

From what I know of the area however... are the bolts REALLY clipable from the crack? From a good stance? For someone of 'average height and abiltiy'. Joe, your finger Tip-fingertip is probably at least 18 inches longer than mine so clipping those bolts might be a good option for you. John, You are a climber of superior skill and ability and so it may also be easy for you. Would a 5.6 or 5.7 leader be able to clip those bolts? Isn't Some Enchanted Evening a 5.6?

Like I said, I haven't climbed the route, but I'm just trying to pose some questions given my experience as a 'new'? 'old'? climber?

[john]

Martha, The guy who climbed it with me, could not get up salt and pepper (5.7) the same day, but still got to the bolts from SEE; getting to the bolts is not about ability or strength you can reach them easily from the crack and the opposite is true, you can place gear from the arete (this would assume you can climb the arete though, which is about 5.10).

Chris, this is not about years in, old or new, I was just pointing out there is historical ethics well established at cochrane lane and that not everyone might be aware of them or have taken the time to learn, consider or respect them. Its their choice. I was just pointing out the facts as I see them, after climbing a lot and researching the history over the years.

I am curious who thinks what, based on who climbed the route. Yes people like bolts, but it does not mean its in keeping with previously agreed on ethics and precedent. Its healthy discussion though.

[martha]

Fair enough John.

I agree that there are historical ethics, However, things evolve. That being said, it IS a slippery slope because where do you draw the line on that evolution? Bolting Warm and Sultry?

Hey, I'm all for bolts but I'm also to standing true to certain beliefs without being ridiculously picky about it because it has been pointed out that there are exceptions to the 'ethical standards' all over Welsford.

I think That Fred uses good judgement in placing his bolts and he is one of the biggest developers in the last 5 years in the province. Ignoring ethics is not something he does so I think that we let the route stand. But hey... maybe I'm biased cause I'm married to him?

[Greg]

If you are on the arête proper I think it is debatable whether or not the falls would be safe on gear placed in any crack of SEE.

I have climbed both of these routes and realize that they are close together but they each have distinct characteristics and placing gear or clipping bolts from the other route would be awkward or perhaps not safe.

As others have mentioned there are plenty more routes that compromise the ethic in question and yet they don’t seem to be a concern. What about The Boulevard? Based on this ethic the rap station for Astroboy Direct should go too. The Boulevard is an overgrown, obscure route that likely doesn’t get climbed much but it is also from the same era as SEE and put up by the same FA’s. Shouldn’t it get the same respect?

[*Chris*]

I am curious who thinks what, based on who climbed the route. Yes people like bolts, but it does not mean its in keeping with previously agreed on ethics and precedent. Its healthy discussion though.

Agreed. Having climbed the line I can acknowledge the point of view that these bolts are close to SEE but what's done is done. I made every effort to stay on the arete to the point of falling on the bolt in question. I believe that if I were to be protecting the crack to the right, I'd have had to come off the route proper, place gear from a stance, then come back on the arete. I think the lesson has been learned here... I don't see any additive value coming from chopping these bolts.

[Fred]

Jesus! You guys make it sound like I bolted Warm and Sultry.

What's done is done can be undone. I'll remove all the hardware this weekend including the 4 anchors.

[Andrew]

This sort of disagreement is very discouraging to new route developers.

It really kills the spirit.

[martha]

This sort of disagreement is very discouraging to new route developers.

It really kills the spirit.

Andrew, these conversations have been going on forever. search the forum for old threads on bolt anchors, new bolted lines etc....

It just gives us something to chew on over beer.

[Adam]

John, you did not respond to my point about sticky fingers...? that bolt is as close or closer to the natural protection on mammalian in comparison to the bolts on DDT/EES... and no one has ever complained about it. so why the discrepancy?

thoughts?

i really don't think the anchors nor the bolts should be removed this weekend. if they are to be we should really discuss over some beers so it is a real discussion and not an interweb hot potato.

[Dom]

I think we should also discuss removing the 4 bolt anchors since the local ethics of Welsford also state that bolt anchors should only be used where natural protection or trees are not available.
I think we should also discuss removing the 4 bolt anchors since the local ethics of Welsford also state that bolt anchors should only be used where natural protection or trees are not available.

Well I'm a ''new'' Cochrane Lane climber for the purpose of this thread. I think rap anchors should be the standard everywhere we climb. I realize that sometimes for convenience/$ we use trees but I think this should be the exception to the rule. In a era of time where we advocate conservancy I think it's time we save the trees. Call me a tree hugger but even Stephen Harper talks about the environnement these days...
My point is keep the rap anchors, save the trees!

[Dom]

Ohh yeah and Anubis on pyramid wall has bolts really close to a bomber crack...

[john]

Adam, I think that bolt is unnecessary also, but the gear there is not ideal by any means (dont recall which route put up first), so I dont think its as clear cut as other cases. There is always grey areas. If nothing else I wanted to bring things up, to be discussed and make sure the issues are considered in future, from both sides.

I think the lower 3 or 4? DDT bolts could be relocated on the left face and solve that problem. The next 2 I dont think are needed, there is good good within a couple ft in the flakes and the last one has gear to the right, but even if you do clip the bolt with the amount of rope out, you are going to hit the ledge if you fall manteling onto the block anyway. The only purpose it serves is to keep you from falling off the ledge and to me the gear out right does the same thing. If you are really uncomfortable you just chimney up instead of climbing the face for the last 8ft.

I think the top DDT anchors are a nice addition. The lower anchors are good as well, if any were removed it would be the old astroboy ones, the stance is not as good as the new water walk anchors anyway. I don't think leaving all the anchors is a big deal, it does not change the character of the climbing, just gives a comfortable stance and exit opportunity. Its not like these have issues of hanging belays being used to break up long pitches.

I never said chop the route that was the poll word choice I think the route is a great addition, but should be modified and everyone wins.

As for scarring the rock if removed correctly you cannot even see the old holes its just most people chop out of anger and are not willing to fix it properly. You take a small dab of epoxy after you break off the stud and just barely touch the old hole with it and take a handfull of rock chips and dirt off a ledge and hold your hand a few inches away and blow the dust out of your hand against the rock, it sticks to the epoxy and is the same color as the surroundings. when done right you cannot tell at all.

jb

[Adam]

the gear there is not ideal by any means

how so? b/c it is not in line with the route? this would be the same argument with DDT.

in any case, unless my memory is failing me, i don't really know how you could place gear in EES crack while FULLY on the arete. i think you prob had one hand on the arete and were standing on the right hand face... ??

[*Chris*]

I think the top DDT anchors are a nice addition. The lower anchors are good as well, if any were removed it would be the old astroboy ones, the stance is not as good as the new water walk anchors anyway. I don't think leaving all the anchors is a big deal, it does not change the character of the climbing, just gives a comfortable stance and exit opportunity. Its not like these have issues of hanging belays being used to break up long pitches.

I don't know how you can balk at the bolts on the DDT arete and yet lend your support to the Waterwalk bolt anchor. I'm doing the long division here... and it just doesn't work out.

in any case, unless my memory is failing me, i don't really know how you could place gear in EES crack while FULLY on the arete. i think you prob had one hand on the arete and were standing on the right hand face... ??

Yep. That's what I recall as well.

[Stacey]

What's done is done can be undone. I'll remove all the hardware this weekend including the 4 anchors.

I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to discuss...and if we are talking about majorities, etc. I would say (at the time I'm replying) we have 11 for leaving the bolts and only 2 against.

Fred - please don't rush to get rid of the bolts....

Stacey

[Stacey]

I never said chop the route that was the poll word choice I think the route is a great addition, but should be modified and everyone wins.



jb

Who truly loses if the bolts stay? at a vote of 11 to 2...seems local ethics may be changing....

[Shawn B]

A number of different issues are raised throughout this thread. The most important one is that of the overall ethics which have been established for Welsford. Regardless of your own personal view, respect should be shown and ethics conformed to according to what has been generally acceptable practices since rock climbing started here in NB. Who are we to suddenly decide that this generation is correct in their beliefs and that those who "showed us the way" were wrong all along? I don't necessarily agree with all of the established practices but I do respect them (for the most part) and don't think they should be changed nor compromised. Cochrane Lane is our main cliff and the established "traditional" area. Other areas (St. Andrews, Sunnyside, etc) are different and their ethics should be open to those who develop the areas (Sunnyside...bolt it all!!).

Regarding DDT and SEE...I'll have to re-climb both to give an educated opinion. SEE is a very nice traditional line that for some reason has never seen regular ascents. If bolts can easliy be clipped from SEE then they should be re-located. Does anyone know where SEE finishes after going around the block? Does it go up the left face or continue up more in the corner past the "falcon ledge"? I don't remember any natural gear on the boulder move to top out but didn't really look either. When I climbed it a few weeks ago I remember being surprised at how much climbing there was on the right side of the arete. Was this done to create a more moderate line vs a harder climb up the face on the left of the arete and on the outside arete up the final totem block?

Re Sticky Fingers…don’t worry…that bolt will snap off on the next fall. ) Having climbed that many times, you would have to go off route to place gear on Mamalian. But I would gladly replace that bolt with something a bit further left and a new ss bolt. I think it is a bad bolt job for anyone shorter as you are looking at ground fall if you blow it getting to and/or clipping that bolt. Should have had two bolts…one anyone can clip when standing on the jug over the roof and another one about 2-3 feet higher and left of the current bolt. Then it would no way encroach on Mamalian…which I really don’t think it does anyway.

Bolt anchors are a totally different subject from protection bolts and should be discussed in its own thread. Anchor bolts do not change the characteristics of the climb itself and bolted anchors are used for various reasons/justifications.

Why was this brought up now? There are far worse infractions that have been in place for years than this (first bolts on Never Ending Story, bolts on Mon Premier French Kiss…for the purpose of Solstice, the bolts beside Roundup to the right of Pass the Moonshine if you want to talk about bolts next to a crack). Fred, don’t rush to any quick actions and go chopping anchors and bolts just because someone had an opinion on a question you asked. Let cool heads prevail. Discussion and thought should be put into this one before any actions.

[Shawn B]

Who truly loses if the bolts stay? at a vote of 11 to 2...seems local ethics may be changing....

Local ethics aren't changing. Climbers views are.