Sliding X anchor

[Greg]

I've been looking at using the the sliding X as an alternative to the figure 8 on a bight for situations where there will be off axis loading and changes in direction of pull in the anchor. Is anyone out there using the sliding x?

[the kydd]

I use it. When there are two bombproof anchor points (bolts). I've also used it to equalize two marginal pieces of pro.

I like it, it is simple and very fast to rig.

[Ulysse]

I do for ice and mixed climbing or anywhere where severe forces might happen. The only thing I add to system is a knot on each strand instead of the entire focal point. The system is more or less protected from extention since the the knot gets jammed in the binner if an anchor fails. Works well as long as the knots are close to the focal point. The main drawback is the aprox 30% reduction in sling strenght from the knots and a limited range of motion of the sliding x if the knots are to close to the biner. Also, you might want to consider a figure 9 or someting thats easy to untie after loading.

[martha]

I use it on climbs that have two good bolts, especially if the route is going to get top roped by beginners who tend to wander back and forth a bit. I use two slings for it though.

[granite_grrl]

I like the idea of using two slings for it, Cara, especially if it's being used as a TR anchor.

I never use it for anchors, but occasionally to equalize a nest of gear on lead. I figure if you have bomber anchor points there really isn't a need to ensure they're always perfectly equalized.

[Greg]

I do for ice and mixed climbing or anywhere where severe forces might happen. The only thing I add to system is a knot on each strand instead of the entire focal point. The system is more or less protected from extention since the the knot gets jammed in the binner if an anchor fails. Works well as long as the knots are close to the focal point. The main drawback is the aprox 30% reduction in sling strenght from the knots and a limited range of motion of the sliding x if the knots are to close to the biner. Also, you might want to consider a figure 9 or someting thats easy to untie after loading.

If the knots were tied higher up there would still be some shock loading but there would be a greater range to the sliding x than tieing the knots down low.

I use it on climbs that have two good bolts, especially if the route is going to get top roped by beginners who tend to wander back and forth a bit. I use two slings for it though.

I like the idea of using two slings to solve the redundancy problem but the potential of shock loading still exists if one of the anchor points fails.

Thanks for the feedback. In an effort to fix the equalization problem with the 8 on a bight I am going to give the sliding x a trial run.

[martha]

I like the idea of using two slings to solve the redundancy problem but the potential of shock loading still exists if one of the anchor points fails.

Yup, but honestly... how likely is that with 2 good bolts and two locking biners? don't forget that we climb on ONE rope most of the time... so no redundancy there. For the ease of set up and limited gear you need to bring for this anchor..... I'm perfectly fine taking the risk using it.

Most of the time Fred and I use 2 quick draws as anchors on sport routes (in Greenlaw that is pretty well all we use unless we know that a lot of people are going to be top roping on it)... one person leads up, sets a quick anchor of 2 draws and the other either pulls the rope and re-leads or top ropes through the draws. You save a TON of time and can get more climbing in. It is all A-OK with me.

[Shawn B]

Most of the time Fred and I use 2 quick draws as anchors on sport routes (in Greenlaw that is pretty well all we use unless we know that a lot of people are going to be top roping on it)... one person leads up, sets a quick anchor of 2 draws and the other either pulls the rope and re-leads or top ropes through the draws. You save a TON of time and can get more climbing in. It is all A-OK with me.

IMNSHO you are endorsing a "not-so-safe" practice Cara. Yes it seems to be a well accepted practice at sport climbing venues. Just something I myself have never been comfortable with. Can anyone tell me why it seems accepted in sport climbing yet if you saw a trad climber using a single non-locker on an anchor you'd call it sketch. Gravity doesn't know if you are sport climbing or trad climbing. And whacky things can happen. So really how much harder is it to rig a couple of shoulder length slings with a locker on each end and clip the anchor with that vs just a standard quick draw. Heck rig a couple of dogbones with lockers and use those if the shoulder length are a pain. I always have one of these and clip the first bolt with it due to the varying angles which can be placed on the first piece (I call it my slowdraw). Why not stack the odds in your favour? Is it worth a few extra seconds of time and the price of 4 lockers for your kids to have a mommy?

And Greg...regarding the sliding x...search back a few months. Burley and I discussed the benefits of both and I posted a link to a real good article on anchors. There is no one absolute perfect solution for all anchors. At least one variable will always be compromised. The limiting knots do help some in the sliding x though. I think both are good options to have in your anchor arsenal. Like Cara said though double up the sling if using a sliding x.

[Adam]

i wouldn't call it 'not-so-safe', but rather 'not-quite-as-bombproof'... two unencumbered non-lockers in the opposed and opposite orientation should never allow the rope to come out. if the biners are going to be sitting against an edge then granted, they should be lockers, but if they're hanging free then there is no issue IMHO.

if nonlockers are not to be trusted, then you should be putting a locker on every piece of gear.

[Shawn B]

How 'bout we re-name it a "not-as-safe" practice. Yes I would agree it is unlikely if they are free hanging. But even you said the SHOULD never come out. A knot SHOULD also never magicly appear in the middle of a rope either. My argument is simple...why not? Give me one good solid reason for not using lockers. And I never said non-lockers shouldn't be trusted. However if there is a piece of gear that if it failed the result would be catastrophic (ie cratering from60 feet+) then yes by all means a locker or two o&o non lockers should be used. However, two separate draws not coming to a single point doesn't comprise o&o. In a TR situation, that anchor is your only point of safety. If it fails, that is it. In a lead situation where non-lockers are normally used there is usually more than one point of safety (most climbers have more than one piece/pitch). More care should be taken as well if the quickdraw you chose to use for the anchor are stiff (ie petzl draws). Open draws imo would be much harder to unclip.

[Adam]

Give me one good solid reason for not using lockers.

There isn't one, I agree. We should be using them on TR anchors at all times. Just a judgment call based on the anchor set up at the time. We get lax in our perception of what is 'uber-safe' and tend to get slack and get more used to seeing only sport draws used on anchors. Bad habits to pass on though if you have beginners around. Do as I say not as I do of course!

[martha]

For the most part, Fred and I use that anchor in a situation where everyone (or nearly) is leading. So I lead up a route, place two draws on an anchor and lower off. Then pull the rope, and Fred leads behind me. or perhaps Fred just isn't strong enough to lead the route that I just floated up... and he top ropes though it... with every draw already in place.. cleaning as he goes and then rapping off the top. So now he has every draw and the anchor protecting him. If multiple people are going to be top roping I set another type of anchor. It *might* not be 'as' safe... so then neither is climbing on a single rope vs doubles either. or not wearing a helmet vs wearing one....

It doesn't take much extra time to set up another form of anchor but I feel as safe with 2 draws on a route that is directly below the anchor. I have done the same on Snake Peel or any other route in Welsford that has an appropriate bolt anchor to lower off and haven't thought much of it.

however... if I am climbing with beginners or teaching beginners I would use lockers and an eight or over hand on a bight or a sliding x for anchors... Give them all the best information and then let them make their own decisions when they get out on their own.

[Fred]

Safety is one thing... but what about appearance? How cheesy will you look sending some hard sport route with webbing and lockers on your belt. What if the scouts are watching?


Greg: I would say, use the "x" (with two slings) if you want and re-focus your energy on barking at bad belayers and making sure you remembered to tie-in. That's more likely where you'll slip-up and get hurt.

Shawn: you do tend to be on the other extreme end of caution sometimes with locking binner quickdraws on sport routes and all, not that there's anything wrong with that (insert Seinfeld joke here) Safer is always better kids and at the end of the day it's a hands down argument in Shawn's favor to lean towards more safety.

[Greg]

Greg: I would say, use the "x" (with two slings) if you want and re-focus your energy on barking at bad belayers and making sure you remembered to tie-in. That's more likely where you'll slip-up and get hurt.

Speaking of refocusing energy Fred, aren't you supposed to be out somewhere chasing cougars?

[Greg]

And Greg...regarding the sliding x...search back a few months. Burley and I discussed the benefits of both and I posted a link to a real good article on anchors. There is no one absolute perfect solution for all anchors. At least one variable will always be compromised. The limiting knots do help some in the sliding x though. I think both are good options to have in your anchor arsenal. Like Cara said though double up the sling if using a sliding x.

Yup, remember the thread and read the article. I think you're right that there is no perfect anchor. Something from SRENE will almost always get left out but I will try the x for solving the equalization problem.

[martha]

Speaking of refocusing energy Fred, aren't you supposed to be out somewhere chasing cougars?

he's going to need to since he and Shawn killed me off in another thread!!! LOL

[Joe]

Shawn: you do tend to be on the other extreme end of caution...

Hey, the guy's a life insurance salesman, waddya expect? I'd rather it that way than getting insurance from a crazy, daredevil, extreme climber-type guy (maybe french and bald?).

[Murph]

Check out http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp_archive.php#071608. A single sling in a sliding X anchor configuration broke their testing rig. The sliding X with knots and figure 8 anchor configurations broke at 21.2 and 23.5 Kn respectively.

[*Chris*]

Ha... is it too late for Burley and I to get into this debate?

Greg... for TR... I used to use the sliding x on two slings but honestly... any route wandering that much should probably have directional pieces on it anyway. It's a good tool to know however and I use it often as part of gear anchors. I will say this however... how is it possible for a bolt to be "shock-loaded" if a top rope fall leads to an X extending a foot or two... given the amount of dynamic rope in the system?

[Andrew]

I had some new climbers go out with me 3 or so years back. Those guys had mainly just done rappelling and not much real rock climbing. They had been reading books about climbing knots and they showed me this 'Sliding X' anchor deal and I thought it was pretty slick, but the first thing I said was that it was not redundant. One sling, one biner, two bolts or natural gear anchors. My solution was like you said, to double-up for redundancy. Two sliding X anchors each with their own biner.

I don't use it when I make an anchor, though. I don't like the idea of it. As you showed me, I like to use two 120cm slings with a figure eight (or other appropriate knot) near the end to equalize and put two lockers (oval) on the ends.

Seems more simple and I feel more safe.

AM

Most of the time Fred and I use 2 quick draws as anchors on sport routes (in Greenlaw that is pretty well all we use unless we know that a lot of people are going to be top roping on it)... one person leads up, sets a quick anchor of 2 draws and the other either pulls the rope and re-leads or top ropes through the draws. You save a TON of time and can get more climbing in. It is all A-OK with me.

IMNSHO you are endorsing a "not-so-safe" practice Cara. Yes it seems to be a well accepted practice at sport climbing venues. Just something I myself have never been comfortable with. Can anyone tell me why it seems accepted in sport climbing yet if you saw a trad climber using a single non-locker on an anchor you'd call it sketch. Gravity doesn't know if you are sport climbing or trad climbing. And whacky things can happen. So really how much harder is it to rig a couple of shoulder length slings with a locker on each end and clip the anchor with that vs just a standard quick draw. Heck rig a couple of dogbones with lockers and use those if the shoulder length are a pain. I always have one of these and clip the first bolt with it due to the varying angles which can be placed on the first piece (I call it my slowdraw). Why not stack the odds in your favour? Is it worth a few extra seconds of time and the price of 4 lockers for your kids to have a mommy?

And Greg...regarding the sliding x...search back a few months. Burley and I discussed the benefits of both and I posted a link to a real good article on anchors. There is no one absolute perfect solution for all anchors. At least one variable will always be compromised. The limiting knots do help some in the sliding x though. I think both are good options to have in your anchor arsenal. Like Cara said though double up the sling if using a sliding x.

[Fred]

Greg:

It's been brought to my attention that perhaps my comment to watch your belayer might have been interpreted as a crack at Stacey. I assure you it was a general comment to keep your eyes on all belayers. The thought never crossed my mind when I wrote that original post. I'd let Stace belay me anyday.

Cheers

[martha]

Two sliding X anchors each with their own biner.

Andrew, that doesn't work....

you use 2 slings (sliding x's) and put the two opposite and opposed biners through BOTH of them..... not one for each..... Always use two (O&O) biners on the rope end of the TR system.

Cheers.

Cara

[Greg]

Ha... is it too late for Burley and I to get into this debate?

Greg... for TR... I used to use the sliding x on two slings but honestly... any route wandering that much should probably have directional pieces on it anyway. It's a good tool to know however and I use it often as part of gear anchors. I will say this however... how is it possible for a bolt to be "shock-loaded" if a top rope fall leads to an X extending a foot or two... given the amount of dynamic rope in the system?

If one bolt blows on a two bolt sliding x anchor there will suddenly be slack in the anchor sling and it will extend, possibly causing the rest of the anchor (1 bolt) to be shock loaded. This would happen only if the limiter knots weren't tied in the sling. The sliding x with one sling goes against two aspects of SRENE - Redundant and NonExtending. However.....with just one sling tied with two limiter knots the sliding x meets all the requirements of SRENE.

How was Gunkland?

[Greg]

Greg:

It's been brought to my attention that perhaps my comment to watch your belayer might have been interpreted as a crack at Stacey. I assure you it was a general comment to keep your eyes on all belayers. The thought never crossed my mind when I wrote that original post. I'd let Stace belay me anyday.

Cheers

No worries Fred. Stacey and I didn't think you were referring to her.

[PeterA]

Ha... is it too late for Burley and I to get into this debate?

Greg... for TR... I used to use the sliding x on two slings but honestly... any route wandering that much should probably have directional pieces on it anyway. It's a good tool to know however and I use it often as part of gear anchors. I will say this however... how is it possible for a bolt to be "shock-loaded" if a top rope fall leads to an X extending a foot or two... given the amount of dynamic rope in the system?

If one bolt blows on a two bolt sliding x anchor there will suddenly be slack in the anchor sling and it will extend, possibly causing the rest of the anchor (1 bolt) to be shock loaded. This would happen only if the limiter knots weren't tied in the sling. The sliding x with one sling goes against two aspects of SRENE - Redundant and NonExtending. However.....with just one sling tied with two limiter knots the sliding x meets all the requirements of SRENE.

How was Gunkland?

Even with limiter knots there will still be schockloading, just not as much. They're limiting knots, not eliminating knots And no anchor truly meets all of the SRENE guidelines.

-PJ

[martha]

Ha... is it too late for Burley and I to get into this debate?

Greg... for TR... I used to use the sliding x on two slings but honestly... any route wandering that much should probably have directional pieces on it anyway. It's a good tool to know however and I use it often as part of gear anchors. I will say this however... how is it possible for a bolt to be "shock-loaded" if a top rope fall leads to an X extending a foot or two... given the amount of dynamic rope in the system?

If one bolt blows on a two bolt sliding x anchor there will suddenly be slack in the anchor sling and it will extend, possibly causing the rest of the anchor (1 bolt) to be shock loaded. This would happen only if the limiter knots weren't tied in the sling. The sliding x with one sling goes against two aspects of SRENE - Redundant and NonExtending. However.....with just one sling tied with two limiter knots the sliding x meets all the requirements of SRENE.

How was Gunkland?

I think what Chris was getting at is that in a top rope system with 30+ meters of dynamic rope out, a shock loading situation should one anchor bolt fail is unlikely. the rope itself would absorb much of the shock.

[*Chris*]

Ha... is it too late for Burley and I to get into this debate?

Greg... for TR... I used to use the sliding x on two slings but honestly... any route wandering that much should probably have directional pieces on it anyway. It's a good tool to know however and I use it often as part of gear anchors. I will say this however... how is it possible for a bolt to be "shock-loaded" if a top rope fall leads to an X extending a foot or two... given the amount of dynamic rope in the system?

If one bolt blows on a two bolt sliding x anchor there will suddenly be slack in the anchor sling and it will extend, possibly causing the rest of the anchor (1 bolt) to be shock loaded. This would happen only if the limiter knots weren't tied in the sling. The sliding x with one sling goes against two aspects of SRENE - Redundant and NonExtending. However.....with just one sling tied with two limiter knots the sliding x meets all the requirements of SRENE.

How was Gunkland?

I think what Chris was getting at is that in a top rope system with 30+ meters of dynamic rope out, a shock loading situation should one anchor bolt fail is unlikely. the rope itself would absorb much of the shock.

Exactly. Lets say you manage to somehow blow a bolt on a TR fall... perhaps the hanger spins off... let's be generous and say you're going to freefall 3 meters due to extension and an asleep belayer. Typically on a top rope setup you're going to have at least 30m of rope in the system.

Fall distance / Rope length = fall factor = 0.1

How does a 0.1 fall factor = a " shock load " on the remaining bolt?

[*Chris*]

Oh... and the Gunks was awesome. I'll post some pics in the next few days.

[Greg]

Even with limiter knots there will still be schockloading, just not as much. They're limiting knots, not eliminating knots And no anchor truly meets all of the SRENE guidelines.

-PJ

True enough but the amount of extension is so small that I think it would be insignificant.

[Greg]

Exactly. Lets say you manage to somehow blow a bolt on a TR fall... perhaps the hanger spins off... let's be generous and say you're going to freefall 3 meters due to extension and an asleep belayer. Typically on a top rope setup you're going to have at least 30m of rope in the system.

Fall distance / Rope length = fall factor = 0.1

How does a 0.1 fall factor = a " shock load " on the remaining bolt?

Okay, I see your point now......