I was wondering....

[thicks]

Should a bolt hanger, placed on a indoor climbing wall (ex: Gagetown sport wall) be reinforced beyond simply plugging one in to a standard T-Nut hole?

[*Chris*]

Yep.

I know at UNB that we've had people set up slack lines using hangers on t-nuts. I think it's resulted in the locker/hanger/nut assembly behaving like a bullet.

[chossmonkey]

Without a doubt they should be. T-Nuts can be ripped through the plywood just by yarding on a hold. T-nuts themselves are often flimsy. At bare minimum the bolt hanger should be connected to a bolt that goes through solid lumber that is solidly attached to or part of the frame and then has a heavy duty washer and then nut on the back.


For route setting it is common to put a bolt hanger into a T-nut just for a bodyweight directional, but they must be removed after use.

[Fred]

An indoor lead climbing system should be engineered. There are important considerations for the structure let alone the hanger.

[Soup]

Not a pro on the topic but I would just like to reassure ppl that all the bolt hangers on the gage walls are reinforced with steel beams and that is why the bolt hangers never change location.

scott

[thicks]

I was really just wondering, and I didnt mean to cast any doubt on the safety of Gagetown(in the least).

But thanks everyone for the input.
THicks

[Burley]

T man,

Giver buddy. I think you'd be fine even if you just slung some nails on the way up!

[joysquirts]

yup hire a team of engineeres! and make sure the welding inspector in involved to check the structure, dont forget the building inspector will have to wright a report. your really going to need a quality control department in place and make sure all the proper paper work and documant control is properly filed.
a cute admin girl will help defuse the tention between construction and QC, she will also keep your attention away from the 30K u just spent on doing it the "right" way


just use common sence. does it look safe? take a fall whats the worst that can happen? if the nut rips out it will slow your fall! she'll be alright mate!

hahaha

[chossmonkey]

Are you building a lead wall Tyler?

I've heard of a gym running a cable behind the wall that was anchored at the top and bottom to a bomber attachment as back up. Each bolt had a bolt hanger on the back of the wall that the cable went through and was attached to. If the bolt ripped out the cable should theoretically catch, though with a bit more drop. I'm not sure what they had as the main anchor points, that should still be beefy.

[john]

Check of CWA - Climbing Wall Association, they have guidelines for this already.

jb

[Fred]

Squirts:

There is a saying... "you get what you pay for and you can pay more now or pay more later"

Obviously my advice is for commercial gym owners and most would agree that for liability reasons it's best to pass that buck onto someone else. Then again, I guess you could take a gamble and go at it with your own hammer. What's the worst that can happen right?

[joysquirts]

no for sure fred your advice is solid! i totally agree! when dealing with public safty and insurence issues. having that sigiture would stand nicely if god forbid you ever had to go to court to justify why a climber fell to there death in your climbing gym.
with my career i rely heavily on engineer aprovals, to cover my actions. every day i have to chase those fellas down and steal there jonny handcock's. I pay thousands of dollers a year for liability insurence to cover myself and my company incase i were to sign off something that later faild. it makes sence and thats why we do it!

most people dont have the money to be paying an engineer to desing a climbing wall, and most engineers tho very good at what they do dont have experience with designing a climbing wall, tho they will do a very nice job im sure! it will take time and reserch for them to do it.
being a poor climbing buissness man building a climbing gym i think his engineer account is better spent buying plastic holds.
and he should "man up" to the challenge and reserch it himself! there is a lot of info on how to build a wall, and doing it yourself will be better for you as an operator/owner in understanding the structure your working with and you will feel batter about yourself knowing you designed and built a safe wall. the inspector still comes and signs it off. your liability insurence still covers you in the case of an accident. and you have thousands of dallers saved, that you can put towards the reserch and materials you will need to start making your own climbing holds!

MAN UP! take the initiative to DO IT YOURSELF, and stop wasting money on services and things you dont need.

haha look at me im spraying on the forum! i will be applying for sprayer of the year! id like to take the belt away from the mit! haha

[john]

Tyler,

I just typed a long message here and lost it for some reason but to answer your question directly. YES.

Here is a link to what the guidelines are:

http://www.climbingwallindustry.org/dra ... nload1.php

You have to sign up to get a copy, There is also information on insurance on this site etc, its a good idea to read the whole site as a gym owner anyway.

Here is a little quote from the doc about lead anchor spacing

4.3.2.3 When there are lead anchors, the first lead anchor shall be no higher than 4 meters above the finished floor (i.e. top of permanent landing surface). Spacing of second lead anchor shall be no more than one meter. The spacing of each subsequent anchor shall be placed at a consistent separation of between 1 to 1.3 meters. Alternatively apply the formula X = (H+2.0)/5 to find the maximum allowable distance “X” between each successive lead anchor and “H” the distance (in meters) between the lead anchor and the finished floor or other obstruction measured vertically beneath the lead anchor. The distance X shall not exceed 2 meters. For the purpose of spacing, the top rope belay anchor or belay stance shall be considered the last lead anchor and shall not exceed the calculated spacing. For lead anchor spacing, the maximum distance is measured from center to center of the point of attachment of the lead anchor to the ACS.

For more details about load calcs see the doc, it will also reference CEN, ASTM and UIAA standards for the details of what to achor to. You could always vary from the guideline in anyway as long as you meet or exceed the force requirements on the lead anchor. I have seen this done in a few ways.

cheers

jb

[thicks]

Thanks again one and all.(Including Burley)

No plan on building a Lead wall myself. Which doesnt mean I dont think about doing it now and then, but I also think about what I would do after winning the lotto.(note - I would not build a lead wall if I won the lotto)
Thicks

[Burley]

I still say plywood, 2x4's and some nails will get er done. I think the nails have to be at like 45 degrees if you want to sling them for pro, but the engineers would have to confirm. I don't think the length of the nails really matters as long as they go in.

For holds I hear sawing holes in the plywood works A1 and save a ton o cash. If you make a bad cut they can easily be covered with masking tape.

You're welcome for the help T! Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any further construction questions.

Work safe!

[betaburgler]

Always hire engineers times are rough and we need your money...