beal dynaconnexion

[david]

Has anyone ever used one of those. I wanted to buy a metolius PAS as a gift but they were out at MEC in Qc City (don't have a credit card so I can't buy online). Seems to be a bit short... the dynamic aspect of it sounds like bs to me. Any opinion, positive or negative??

[Burley]

Since it is made from dynamic rope it will be more dynamic than a series of static slings (PAS). The whole dynamic vs static thing will come into play on trad anchors that are extendable or if for some stupid reason you decided to climb above the trad anchor (to fix a placement?) and factor 2ed on the anchor. A Dynamic tie in will put less force on you and the anchor... significantly less than a static tie in. If you have a good anchor that is made from dynamic cord, is SARENE, and you don't factor 2 on the anchor while tied into it... you should be good to go with a static tie in. If you're using a trad anchor to belay the second you should be tied into the best placement directly with your dynamic climbing rope anyhow (and PAS on main anchor point).

I'm sure you know all of this, but... The advantage of the PAS over this or a sling or using the climbing rope or a daisy is that it has multi-length options of equal strength. Also, you can easily clip into two hangers when cleaning a bolt anchor. The dynamic static thing never came into the decision for me.

This thing seems to only be useful at full length and no midway clip in points... might as well use a daisy, your climbing rope or a sling. Daisy chains are only full strength from end to end and the midway points are only good for static body weight (maybe a bounce).

You could easily get some good thinner webbing and make your own quick multi-length tie in system using a series of water knots. If you don't know what I'm talking about ask me the next time you see me.

[david]

Thanks Erick,

I figured a dynamic tie-in would be useful for a factor 2 fall while belaying directly from the harness... but I never thought of the possibility of a fall following climbing above the anchor

I never heard of tying in the best placement with the rope before, but it's a good idea and I will give it more thoughts.

I ended up buying the Dynaconnexion thing anyways since it was for a gift and a sling is not as fancy. It will mostly be used for tying in bolt anchors before rapping down... so I figured it will do the job.

Thanks

David

[Murph]

I was looking into the Beal dynaconnexion, and I liked the idea of a dynamic lanyard. But then I figured why not use a small section of dynamic rope instead? (Figure 8 through both loops, figure 8 at the end) It could be constructed from a good section of an old rope, or a custom length (1-2m), single/half spool rope from MEC. Adjustments could be made with a clove hitch or with a prusick that was tied into your harness. I’m not sure if this setup would work all that well/smoothly, but it would be a less expensive alternative to the dynaconnexion.

[*Chris*]

Sure, you could do that... but why wouldn't you just tie in direct to the anchor with the rope you're already on? Dynamic anchor connections really only come into play on multipitch (or whenever someone is climbing above an anchor). In those cases, tie in with your rope 100% of the time.

If you're using a trad anchor to belay the second you should be tied into the best placement directly with your dynamic climbing rope anyhow (and PAS on main anchor point).

I'd argue you've got this mixed up Burley... your primary connection (the one that would become taught first during a factor 2) should be the dynamic rope.

The beal product looks less adjustable than a simple rope connection and also less adjustable than the PAS type products out there. Either way... it's acedemic. The only time you should use a teather is when setting up a rap... and if you manage to cause a factor 2 fall doing that than you're a Darwin Award candidate anyway.


Acedemic trivia #1) For what it's worth, I've read that correctly spliced loops in ropes maintain near full strength... and therefore... would be superior to a knotted loop. Not that it matters since I don't think anyone's ever broken a climbing rope from brute force during normal use.

Acedemic trivia #2) I own a rig developed for canyoneering called the "Chain Reactor". It's made by Stirling Ropes down in Maine. They claim, although I've never tested it, that it can withstand multiple factor 2 falls, despite it being made from static material (webbing). My geek question of the day... why is fall factor a relavant indicator of force when dynamic material is not in play?

[Burley]

"If you're using a trad anchor to belay the second you should be tied into the best placement directly with your dynamic climbing rope anyhow (and PAS on main anchor point)."

No, I'm not mixed up. I attach myself to a trad anchor's master point/focal point with my PAS and I'll attach the climbing rope from my harness to the best placement via fig 8 on a bight. This is for belaying up the second. Everyone else can do as they wish. When belaying up the second I don't think I'll factor 2 the anchor. Sure you can not even bother with the PAS and just use your rope to secure yourself to everything, but it is easy to make a mistake.

[*Chris*]

Well... you're right, there's little concievable that could be done to really muck things up bringing up a second. Personally, I still find it best to tie into the master point.

Acedemic Trivia #3) Why do we place any weight on the 'NE' component of SRENE when setting up an anchor for top-roping? Let's say a leg fails on a top rope fall, causing 12 inches of extension. How is a the remaining leg 'shock loaded' given the pile of dynamic rope in play during a typical top rope fall?

[Burley]

Chris,

In response to "Acedemic Trivia #3":

It isn't the shock load that worries me. If a top rope anchor fails the consequences are serious. Some folks don't double up the slings when they make a "Sliding X" and the "Sliding X" could rub/wear on the edge. A TR anchor should extend over the edge and not slide back and forth over that edge. I think that beginners should be taught to to Keep it simple and tie the knot as there is a higher opportunity for error when learning to rig the "Sliding X" and it is hard to bugger up a knot. You can still generate highish forces on the anchor in a TR situation... similar to a mild lead fall, but it is all about the fall factor. It is just safer for a beginner to learn the fig 8 setup in my opinion.

When I post on here I tend to state what I would like to see a beginner doing and not what I might choose to do because I (to some extent) have an understanding of the consequenes of a failure of any part of the system. You and Shawn can use the sliding X all day, but you know enough to check the anchor a lunch time and a beginner could TR all day on the same route and not give the anchor a second look. Hangers come off don't they? I've saw one come off this year and found 6 others that were very loose (2 were on anchors).

I saw very experienced folks do the following which worries me more than the above: Slings linked to form a single strand with girth hitches to extend over the edge, two lockers on the top rope, single strand girth hitched around a tree. That was the anchor... basically 3 slings girth hitched together and then girth hitched around a tree to rop rope a 100 foot route. Good thing they used those two opposed lockers to attach the top rope. I mentioned to the leader (we were sharing the tree) that the anchor was crap, cleaned my anchor, rapped off and moved on. Maybe it would hold a fall with new slings, but those things were old, frayed and there was no redundancy where it was needed the most. Girth hitches reduce the capacity to hold by 50% (that is half) due to the mechanical advantage.

[STeveA]

I saw very experienced folks do the following which worries me more than the above: Slings linked to form a single strand with girth hitches to extend over the edge, two lockers on the top rope, single strand girth hitched around a tree. That was the anchor... basically 3 slings girth hitched together and then girth hitched around a tree to rop rope a 100 foot route. Good thing they used those two opposed lockers to attach the top rope. I mentioned to the leader (we were sharing the tree) that the anchor was crap, cleaned my anchor, rapped off and moved on. Maybe it would hold a fall with new slings, but those things were old, frayed and there was no redundancy where it was needed the most. Girth hitches reduce the capacity to hold by 50% (that is half) due to the mechanical advantage.

The 2 lockers (as opposed to only 1 biner) are there to minimize rope drag on the top rope. I would prefer to use opposed ovals since they lie together better but I don't carry ovals on a regular basis.

[Burley]

Ha-Ha... I love it!

Steve,
You're hilarious. Would you really pick to top rope on one girth hitched sling? The person I witnessed wasn't from around here - some dude and his lady from away. Like I said, I gave my opinion so I could sleep and moved on.

I've seen you, PJ and others use the setup (including me when I run out of long slings or forget them), but everyone I've seen had two slings and not one on the tree. Plus you and PJ tend to belay off your harness and not directly off the anchor. I can't see a top rope fall causing failure since the fall should be less than 8kn.

We are all forced to make the best of what we have from time to time. Sometimes that means a loose block, one cam in a crack and a 3" tree for your anchor. Other times that could mean a biner on a hanger because you run out of draws. However, I see no reason not to have redundancy in the soft heat hating parts of your anchor... this dude could have easily made the entire anchor out of his climbing rope and kept everyone super safe and happy... I've done this a few times and it is much better than relying on a single girth hitched sling. I'm not talking about a single sling with a knot because the knot makes it redundant.

[Burley]

The other times I saw this setup (every weekend) were back when I started ice climbing... I was taught some pretty useless stuff... glad I learned how to read

[STeveA]

I would have no problem with 1 sling around the tree. The only place I worry about doubling up is where the sling goes over an edge. I have never seen a sling break at a girth hitch or any other knot (other than in a testing lab environment), however I have seen ropes and slings cut by edges.

[Greg]

Erick, I agree a girth hitch around a tree as an anchor is not a great choice and a 50% strength reduction is probably accurate depending on the direction of pull. Linking slings together with girth hitches, while not pretty, does not reduce the strength beyond 70%. That’s about 17 KN, a heck of a lot of force.

Also consider that this is just one link in the chain and the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Carabiners, anchor, climber's rope, belay device, figure 8 tie in knot, hard points of harnesss, belay loop on belayers harness. What are all these going to break at? Factor in other variables like how old the stuff is, what forces have been applied to it in the past and whether or not someone's dog chewed on it when you weren't looking. That anchor that can withstand 22 KN isn't much good if other peices can only hold 7.

[Shawn B]

For the geeky climbers i'd suggest checking out Kolin Powick's quick clips on the Black Diamond website. He is their quality contol manager and he does all sorts of interesting testing with climbing gear. He did one on girth hitches.

I've seen tons of sketch over the years. And it is truly surprising what one would think is totally sketchy doesn't fail. Not sure if it is just dumb luck or we actually don't generate the forces we think we do in the real climbing world. That said, you would never catch me belaying off one girth hitched sling. See Kolin's stats for actual amount of strength that is lost. I will girth hitch a tree for pro on a route if i have to. I will never girth hitch sling to sling nor sling to cord. I use mostly skinny slings now and never have felt comfortable girth hitching them due to limited surface area. It doesn't take any more time to do it in a safer manner so why not stack the odds in your favour.

[chossmonkey]

For the geeky climbers i'd suggest checking out Kolin Powick's quick clips on the Black Diamond website.

Here is a link to all the tests he has done.


http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php

[Stan]

Hmm...
Look at the test results for different anchor configurations:

Configuration Peak Load (lbf/kN) Failure Point
Sliding X 8000/35.6 none (machine limit)
Sliding X with knots 4760/21.2 webbing @ knot
Figure 8 5272/23.5 webbing @ knot