Improving Climber safety in NB

[Matt Peck]

So I've been thinking a bit lately, (dangerous, I know) and I was wondering what everyone's opinion of the first aid/Spinal immobilization gear availible at the various climbing venues in the area is? I'm thinking of the UNB gym and Cochraine Lane specifically. Perhaps this is too big a topic for one thread to handle, but I figured I'd start things off here, and see where it goes.
The major mechanism of injury involved in the majority of climbing accidents is falls. Resulting injuries are often sprains, strains and fractures, which vary in severity, but have the potential to requre full boarding and c-spine immobilization. It is fortunate that this is a rare occurance in the field, and that injuries in general are seldom, but it does happen.

Ok, so my opinion, and just my opinion:
Currently the UNB Gym has at it's desposal the equipment in the Lord Beaverbrook Gym as well, but the first aid kit kept at the wall is rather minimal in content, and is often poorly stocked. The major injury at the gym almost to the exclusion of all else is an ankle sprain, or tendon/ligament tears. Frequently there are no dressings/bandages to treat this injury, and someone is always running to the cage in order to get ice in a bag. It's frustrating/unprofessional for gym staff to have to deal with these injuries with no equipment availible. A case full of bandaids and Alchohol swabs isn't going to do a whole lot of good for these injuries. This is something that should be approached through the club, and I plan to do that, but I also wanted community reaction/imput here as well.

Cochraine Lane: Response to previous accidents (and they have been few and far between) has been very good from what information I have gathered. Reaction time by EMS and nearby climbers has been good, and patient extracation has historically been relatively swift. It would be wonderful if it could be even quicker.
Having that spine board up there comforts me somewhat, but by itself it's not going to do a lot. Given that climbers/standard first aiders aren't necessarily going to have the skills to do a full spinal immobilization, it's at least something that medic's don't have to carry up the trail with them. Maintaining a full set of head blocks and straps along with the board would be a benefit in case of accident. The placement of the current board might be changed to a more central location as well. As for a permanent stocked first aid box, perhaps that's a bit much to ask the current community, but a central weatherproof container for supplies might be a good idea. This is something I plan to approach the UNB Rock and Ice Club about this summer, though I have no problem with building the box myself. Any imput on location would be appreciated here.

Other locations should be considered as well. Hopefully climbing will only increase in popularity in future years, I hope that it will increase in safety as well.

[Stan]

Thanks Matt,

IMO, the most important aspect here is having the necessary skills - an advanced wilderness first aid course would be useful for everyone.

As for the first aid box, I think there should be head blocks and splints, may be a collar for immobilizing neck (not sure how it's called in English). Other basic wound management stuff should live in your backpack permanently.

[john]

hey Matt,

Good thoughts, there are some issues surrounding what we are allowed and not allowed to do at the wall as far as treatment which affects what gear we are supposed to have on hand at the wall. We can talk about this in person.

Regarding Welsford, this is a community issue for everyone to weigh in on, but be aware there are also issues with the Base regarding this, we can chat about that as well.

cheers

jb

[*Chris*]

It's a good discussion to have Matt:

- I'm certain that last year the club stocked their kit with supplies for sprain/strain type injuries since I brought them in. Perhaps they've been all used up now but if so, they should have been replaced.
- The sign-in box at cochrane lane seems central enough to me since you have to go past it to get to every area. I think it is the logical cache. I think the point is that you don't have to the cars or into town to get supplies... an extra 100m closer isn't the big problem. Also, I don't think the arguement that the responders would have to pack up less would hold. How would they know what was already on-site? Would they really trust whatever info was given to them or would they just pack everything anyway to be sure? I know what I'd do.

p.s. For the record... asking Matt to not talk about this on a public forum because of some percieved liability/access concern is complete bullsh!t. I think is what is happening here... but I hope I'm wrong.

[Burley]

I've seen this statement a few times: "UNB Rock and Ice Club is dedicated to the betterment of climbing in New Brunswick."

My opinion: If it is related to climbing in NB it is a UNB Club issue. That doesn't mean the club is required to fund it or fix it. However, the club should discuss it (as I'm sure it will). The club does a lot of great things. More than any one individual could ever do. If access to areas is a club issue then safety in those areas is also a club issue. I personally don't think the club should purchase this type of gear for the areas (Sunnyside, Greenlaw, Cochrane Lane, Cloud Base, and others). First aid gear doesn't improve safety - it patches the results of poor safety, poor decisions, poor belays, and poor luck. The club would be better served by spending the money on first aid training for members.

Maybe we should construct a helipad and triage center?

I look at larger areas that I've been to and I haven't seen much if any first aid gear let alone a backboard and collar. Problem #1 is that no one knows how to use most of this gear. If an area has a bear problem you don't leave loaded guns at set locations... you educate the land users. Same in this case... that first aid gear to me is like a loaded gun to others... I'll do more harm than good that that in my hands... no problems will be solved.

If it is serious... yell loud, run fast, get help, and Call 911 and the base.

No one would take that backboard due to its size and the verbiage on it, but anything smaller that isn't nailed down will probably be gone in weeks.

[Nihoa]

i had this conversation with richard the other day and the nagging question for me that came out of it was what should the purpose of a first aid kit at the wall be? i dont see the club as a band-aid dispensing organisation, the purpose of a kit should be to stabilise or make a person more comfortable on their way to proper treatment. if you were to get a flapper on the monkey bars of a public park i doubt you will find a first aid kit nearby with polysporin, gauze, tape, etc. i think we should be stocking hand tape to ensure people with hand injuries arent bleeding and oozing all over our holds, a health hazard to the rest of us. if someone sprains a ankle, ice it and get them to the damn hospital. its a few blocks away and why are we wasting time wrapping something in the gym when you can just take them up the road and have it done properly?

burley said it right, you stock a first aid kit with expensive materials and it wont take long to have them used inappropriately and wasted. as i hear it this has already happened. beyond waste of course is further distress to the victim.

some hand tape, tweezers, the basics. if you are needing anything above that you probably should well on your way out of the wall and on to somewhere properly trained and equipped to deal with your situation.

[STeveA]

First aid is a tricky problem. First, unless you have the proper training you should not be putting people onto a spine board or administering medical aid. I am a member of the first response team at the community college and we do not have any bandaids in our medical supplies. We have bandages and splints and oxygen but no bandaids. We do not have any aspirins or advil etc either. There is a legal reason behind these decisions. It may seem obvious to provide items but when a facility or business is involved you have to be careful.

If someone hurts themselves at the wall and it is minor then there is no problem with taking some time to go and get ice etc. If it is major call 911. If someone hurts themselves at the cliff the backboard is convenient but should still only be used by qualified people for immobilization. If you just want something convenient to carry a body out with then anyone can use it. If you have the proper training then the average climbing gear will be sufficient to produce blocks and straps.

There are no good Samaritan laws in Canada, so if you screw something up you may be liable. If you want to make climbing safer then wilderness first responder training and high angle rescue training are the areas to consider.

However, having said all this, it should be emphasized that climbing is historically a very safe sport. Compared to other sports such as basketball, rugby etc, the number of injuries is small. It is always worthwhile to reiterate this point because the media loves to sensationalize things and our sport is always a prime target.

[Adam]

There are no good Samaritan laws in Canada...

http://www.canadianlawsite.ca/goodsamaritan.htm

[STeveA]

Its good to see that some of the provinces are enacting the law, however since not all the provinces have it I stick with my original statement. I am from NB and even if I get hurt in Alberta I can still sue you from NB. It may not go anywhere but I would lodge the case in NB and you will have to fight it. Still costs money and time to fight.

I receive first responder training every 2 years, and without exception they always start the training by telling us the legal aspects. This has always included the statement that Canada, unlike the US, does not have a Good Samaritan Law. I think I will keep this in mind until all the provinces have such a law.

[*Chris*]

'Liability' is one of my least favorite ideas. I suspect it is the cause which sinks many good ideas. It is a poor reason not to be prepared for, and administer help to someone in need. I have also heard the L word used as a justification not to teach climbing safety at the club. Imagine that... let's have unsafe climbers, and then let's not be equipped to handle the unavoidable consequences which follow.

I'm sure there are items which don't make sense to have in a first-aid kit. We're not talking about defibrillators, scalpels, and morphine here. There's likely some items that make a lot of sense... triangular bandages, disinfectant, and yep... the litter. Most people know not to move spinal injury victims, having the litter there doesn't change that. If I were bleeding considerably, I'd prefer to be patched up quickly, and with something clean, all else being equal. How about you?

What's easier to accept: the risk of loosing money from being sued, or the risk of loosing a fellow climber?

[STeveA]

Actually there is no need for a good Samaritan law in New Brunswick for individuals because no judge would allow a case to go to court. The problem is for institutions such as UNB or the Community College. If a fellow climber provides aid I do not think that you would ever have to worry about liability, however when you start talking about the club getting involved then I believe that you do have to worry. The club is part of the University and liability now becomes a concern. If you give the impression that the club does provide emergency medical aid and then in an emergency it is not available I think the club is now liable.

The club should be involved in organizing events for its members, such as first responder training, but not in providing it. It should have a basic first aid kit and a notice listing contact numbers for serious injuries. If one of those contacts happens to be in the gym at the time that is simply good luck. Climbers should discuss these items as we are in this forum but keep the club and other organizations out of it.

I think all climbers should have first responder training (not first aid), and all climbers should be able to rescue another climber from a cliff.

[Charley]

Re: the First Aid Kit at the wall. I think, judging by the latest ankle sprain at the wall that I'm aware of, which happened to be me, that the kit is somewhat on the depleted side. It definitely needs a few more triangular bandages, a few tensor bandages, some gauze pads and absorbent dressings in case of small cuts and wounds, and maybe even some gloves if possible. But beyond that, I can't think of much else really needed, considering the common injuries we have happen and the recent others (like small cuts). Though the hospital is close, it's beneficial for the injured joint / bone and for comfort to stabilize as much as possible while on the way. If there is a concern of waste or inappropriate use of the kit resources, since we already document injuries it would be relatively easy to also make notes on what was used from the kit and what for. Perhaps the tensor bandages or things that can be reused can be returned by the person that used them.

Re: Welsford. I haven't seen the first aid kit there for a while, so I can't comment on restocking. However, having a full C-Spine immobilization kit there would require that those who intend to use it be trained and certified in its proper application and use. Most accidents that happen at Welsford involve either 911 and / or the base, and I know of a few instances that a rescue and medical team was in from Saint John for extrication and support. They have fairly good response times, all things considered, so for most injuries hopefully all that would be required would be to stabilize and support until they arrived.

I'd agree with Steve re: liability. I think it'd be useful for the club to offer first aid or wilderness first responder training, expecially relating it to climbing, but it's a delicate matter to deal with because of the legal issues involved. First aid or First Responder training is usually offered through most employers as well, and it's also available through organizations like St John Ambulance or Red Cross if the individual was interested. Anyone who wants more info on St John Ambulance courses, let me know, and I can get you a course calender for the next year. Wasn't there also a post in the NS section for something similar to Wilderness First Responder related to climbing a few months ago?

Might be a good idea also to have a list of people available in case of accident. Though, there's a pretty good chance that if they're there they'll likely step up to help anyway

[Eager]

Hey,

I have taken a couple of wilderness first aid courses the first with Blair Doyle in NS http://www.wrfa.ca/ who is a awesome instructor and really knows his stuff, the other was my Wilderness First Responder through Wilderness Medical Associates in Alberta with Jason McCleod who was also a excellent instructor.

Although my wilderness first responder has expired it is great to have the training and would be a awesome thing to run through the club (I think CNS offered a climbing specific one with Blair last year). Like Steve said the good Samaritan rule doesn't exempt you unless

1. You are trained and
2. You are in a Wilderness Setting = 2 Hours from definitive Medical Care ie. 911

The Wilderness First Responder course trains you to clear spinals however if it happened in Welsford you'd probably be pushing it. If you were in Cape Clear I'm sure you'd probably be good to go.

I always thought teaching a Recreational Rope Rescue Course Along with Wilderness First Aid would be a awesome way to improve climber safety in the Maritimes. Maybe this is something the UNB Club and CNS could do jointly.

[john]

Chris N,

Your Italics comments, if aimed at me, are off the mark. Steve seems to be the one who has a hold on some of the details surrounding liability concerns for the club, I am happy to discuss what I know of them (and we are bound by some specific UNB rules) any time. I don't know them off the top of my head in exact detail which is what would be required to write them out. I can point you to the correct administrator if anyone is interested or discuss them to my level of understanding at a club meeting or with club members. This is not a club specific forum and I dont feel the need to get into it all here. I was merely offering to discuss with Matt any details I could help with in person.