New Route - Neapolitan 5.10a

[chossmonkey]

When you see the climb, you'll change your mind. The piece comes at most 4 feet above the first bolt. It's also on fairly easy ground. One move after the piece you get to another bolt. Really, the piece isn't required, it's optional. Also, putting a bolt by the crack would put 3 bolts needlessly close together, so it's cheaper to put an optional piece in instead

-PJ

That makes a bit more sense. Routes with one piece of gear just don't get climbed much.

That whole topic is something that could fill a thread of its own, I'll leave the thread drift to Fred and his talk of Martha's cooking.

[Burley]

How do you know what does or doesn't get climbed much in NB? I climb here a bit and I don't really know what routes get traffic. This is like getting beta from your belayer that has never been on the route... pointless.

Steve can add whatever he wants for pro on a new route. No one has to like it. Just be happy there is a new route. That is the right of the FAist is it not? When you put up a route that isn't well protected on trad you have a choice... bolt or no bolt and where they will or will not go.

Yeah, I'd rather not lug a couple cams up a route for one placement, but I'm still going to do it and I'll be happy to have gotten on a new line. Do as you wish... no need to justify it.

I'm looking forward to getting on the routes.

There are plenty of routes I won't do right now because they are too spicy, but that is not to say I won't do them in the future. I like that there is a spicy 5.10 or six waiting for me that I've never been on. Right now I'm happy to get on a spicy 5.7 or 5.8... not hard climbing... just hard on the head... this makes it fun and interesting. I've seen my share of seasoned climbers get schooled on a few easy and not so well protected routes in the past year so no comments about me being a wuss

Put up a route in any style you like. People will either complain about too many bolts, not enough bolts, crap gear, 10b and not 10c, too dirty, I have to clip with my right and I like clipping with my left, too many high steps, it wanders too much, I'd prefer pink over white tape being used to outline the route, dumb name... it goes on and on.

[Adam]

i can guarantee someone will head up that route w/o any pieces and will be unpleasantly surprised at that section.

When you see the climb, you'll change your mind. The piece comes at most 4 feet above the first bolt. It's also on fairly easy ground. One move after the piece you get to another bolt. Really, the piece isn't required, it's optional. Also, putting a bolt by the crack would put 3 bolts needlessly close together, so it's cheaper to put an optional piece in instead

-PJ

you should be a salesman lol

[chossmonkey]

How do you know what does or doesn't get climbed much in NB? I climb here a bit and I don't really know what routes get traffic. This is like getting beta from your belayer that has never been on the route... pointless.

Its a general rule. Just like if I see an overhanging route I know that it is going to be pumpy. I don't need to climb it to know. Yeah there are exceptions, but tend to be few and far between.

Perhaps its different in NB, but according to the discussions on this board it seems that in general even people in NB don't want to lug gear along to do an otherwise all bolted route. In the case of this specific route it might be different since it sounds like the gear really isn't necessary, that wasn't pointed out in the OP.

If you want to debate it we can start another thread.

[STeveA]

Peter

Have you mowed the lawn yet?

[Shawn B]

How do you know what does or doesn't get climbed much in NB? I climb here a bit and I don't really know what routes get traffic. This is like getting beta from your belayer that has never been on the route... pointless.

Its a general rule. Just like if I see an overhanging route I know that it is going to be pumpy. I don't need to climb it to know. Yeah there are exceptions, but tend to be few and far between.

Perhaps its different in NB, but according to the discussions on this board it seems that in general even people in NB don't want to lug gear along to do an otherwise all bolted route. In the case of this specific route it might be different since it sounds like the gear really isn't necessary, that wasn't pointed out in the OP.

If you want to debate it we can start another thread.

No debate required thanks very much. As has been an established ethic in NB for years, we don't bolt rock which is protectable with natural gear. Everyone who climbs here and whose opinion matters knows that. You should probably do some better research before giving an uneducated opinion from 1000 miles away.

And what general rule are you talking about. Do you actually climb or just offer up opinions on climbing? Name one traditional climbing area in NA that bolts cracks. We have traditional roots here in NB. If we ever develop a solely sport climbing crag that might change but it sounds like this cliff will be a mix of sport and trad climbing.

[Adam]

Peter

Have you mowed the lawn yet?

my vote for post of the week

[Burley]

I second Adam's nomination.

Shawn,
Bang on. Don't have to like, but we have to follow it. And nice burn!

[thicks]

Just to get people looking, I know of 4 undeveloped cliffs in New Brunswick. None of them are 100' overhanging limestone, but you never know.

I am going to assume that non of what you mentioned above is anywhere near Moncton. Can I ask how far I will have to drive from Moncton instead? That a fair question? You could just answer past SJ or Fredericton.
(booo for flat topography and double boooo for Moncton's sandstone.)
T

[granite_grrl]

i can guarantee someone will head up that route w/o any pieces and will be unpleasantly surprised at that section.

When you see the climb, you'll change your mind. The piece comes at most 4 feet above the first bolt. It's also on fairly easy ground. One move after the piece you get to another bolt. Really, the piece isn't required, it's optional. Also, putting a bolt by the crack would put 3 bolts needlessly close together, so it's cheaper to put an optional piece in instead

-PJ

Understandable, but I still have a question.....It sounds like the route is more of a 5 bolt run out climb than a 5 bolt 1 cam climb. What is the ground fall potential going to the second bolt? I only ask because if its high it seems pretty irresponsible not to have spaced the bolts a little better. Because as much as some people here don't seem to think it'll happen, I bet most people are going to run up it without that cam.

[Matt Peck]

Bang on Shawn. Good call. It's time somebody said something. Im all about debate on this forum, but having our traditions quoted to us from someone who lives far away is getting kind of old. Especially when such advice is prefixed by the phrase "perhaps it is different in NB". Way to assume, chief.
As for the route being runout, the bolting is fine. The bolts are right where you want them to be, and the piece is not really required, but is nice to have at your disposal. I like how some are so quick to dismiss a route as crap or dangerous because natural gear is preserved. I mean, sorry that trad is inconvenient, but that's kind of too bad. Way to preserve the cliffs for future generations. I know bolts nowadays last 15+ years, but eventually they'll have to be redrilled. That's another topic in itself though.
I'll be the first to thank Steve for setting a good precident. As a wise man once said, "a lot of us climb today because he has been making NB climbs availible for 35 years". Keep up the good work man.

Im never eating at your house again Fred.
(congrats by the way).
Matthew.

[chossmonkey]

We have traditional roots here in NB.

So all these new routes are going ground up?


BTW, I likely climb way more than you do.

[chossmonkey]

I mean, sorry that trad is inconvenient, but that's kind of too bad.

Hey Matt.


Trad is ground up, limited bolts if any placed on lead. Putting one piece of gear in on an otherwise all bolt route is not trad. The supposed ethics have already been violated.


As to the whole "debate" their never really was one. I said that routes that only take one piece of gear don't get climbed much. Like it or not, this is part of the intardnet, if you don't wan to hear other peoples thoughts then keep yours to yourself to.

[*Chris*]

Well Adamson's, if you wanted to create a buzz; I'd say you've done a nice job. Now since the weekend is here why not put us all out of our misery and anticipation.

P.s. I don't think a pissing match about who climbs most is going to be very constructive.

[chossmonkey]

Well Adamson's, if you wanted to create a buzz; I'd say you've done a nice job. Now since the weekend is here why not put us all out of our misery and anticipation.

A weekend of trail building and climbing?

P.s. I don't think a pissing match about who climbs most is going to be very constructive.

How about who climbs the hardest?

[Adam]

i don't think it's so much a debate on ethics as expectations. in principal i'm fine with mixed routes. i just have an expectation that someone, at some point will approach the climb as a sport route, and maybe it will be at their limit. maybe they won't even have a trad rack. maybe they'll get sketched before getting to the second bolt and will deck.

who knows... just a possibility. if it is really easy ground through there then maybe it just will never happen.

as far as preservation... trad invariably is less impactful than sport climbing in that the gear is removable, but it still leaves its mark. i have seen fixed pieces at nearly every crag i've been to, and pin scars on some older routes. these were done with a trad mentality, and yet also leave scars on the rock. i agree bolts are somewhat temporary, but trad isn't without it's impact.

that being said... is the trail ready yet? i wanna go get on these routes and decide for myself. maybe it's a nuttin butta path.

[Adam]

How about who climbs the hardest?

John Bowles.

Next question....?

[Shawn B]

BTW, I likely climb way more than you do.

Well that would make you....what...perhaps....my hero. Considering I have been able to climb once in the past 6 weeks that doesn't say much. Even though I've been laid up I have such a rounded lifestyle that I still don't feel the need to fill my time spraying about things which I have no clue about nor which really doesn't involve me and about a place which I have never seen and involving people which I have never met or know nothing about. Maybe you should follow suit. And incase that doesn't spell it out for you, I'll be blunt. Your constant criticism really isn't appreciated here by very many people. If you for once have something positive to contribute and you have some knowledge of the situation to back up that contribution then by all means do so. Until then...

And since I'm sure you will rebut...you may as well answer this question since you didn't before. Oops...what's wrong...no answer??
"And what general rule are you talking about. Name one traditional climbing area in NA that bolts cracks."

[Adam]

so do you guys have a name for this place yet?

[PeterA]

so do you guys have a name for this place yet?

no consensus on that yet either

-PJ

[Adam]

so do you guys have a name for this place yet?

no consensus on that yet either

-PJ

that's kind of a long name. don't think it will stick.

[granite_grrl]

And since I'm sure you will rebut...you may as well answer this question since you didn't before. Oops...what's wrong...no answer??
"And what general rule are you talking about. Name one traditional climbing area in NA that bolts cracks."

I know that you have already admited that you barely climb, but still! You don't get out much, do you? I have climbed past good protection on sport climbs in Lake Louise, Jack's Canyon, Red Rocks, NRG, and the RRG. I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of them right now. There are also climbs at smaller crags that I've been at, but I'm leaving you with world class areas.

And I still haven't heard the answer to the ground fall protection when someone run up the climb without cams.

And in the end I'm really starting to wonder what traditional ethics means to you (and other people using this as a defence). Have people even thought about what this actually means?

[PeterA]

And I still haven't heard the answer to the ground fall protection when someone run up the climb without cams.

There is no ground fall potential, only a slightly bigger fall potential. The route is perfectly safe either way

-PJ

[granite_grrl]

And I still haven't heard the answer to the ground fall protection when someone run up the climb without cams.

There is no ground fall potential, only a slightly bigger fall potential. The route is perfectly safe either way

-PJ

Well, then. That ends the debate for me. It can be the person's choice to bring a cam or not.

This makes the bolting job a non-issue.

(funny how non-issues are the ones that 'cause the biggest flame wars on the intardnet )

[martha]

I know that you have already admited that you barely climb, but still! You don't get out much, do you? I have climbed past good protection on sport climbs in Lake Louise, Jack's Canyon, Red Rocks, NRG, and the RRG. I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of them right now. There are also climbs at smaller crags that I've been at, but I'm leaving you with world class areas.

Uhh... Shawn and his wife are so busy with their 'lives' in general that climbing is just another passion on their list of many. Being hard core adventure racers, and traveling NA and perhaps further (I dunno) to do so and qualifying for some major races is crazy impressive. It is unreal that they still find time to ice climb, rock climb, cycle, run, ski, back country ski, hike etc etc in all corners of NA in the mean time... plus have jobs, families and other commitments that include helping with trails and other issues in the NB climbing community. They've been climbing for as long as I can remember.. and are solid respected members of the community. Their opinions matter (so long as they are the same as mine.. haha). As far as not climbing for the last 6 weeks...well Fred hasn't been out in nearly a month, between the bugs, the heat wave and life commitments it has been nearly impossible... though I don't think you'd suggest that he 'barely climbs'....

In terms of knowing what 'traditional ethics' are... I think we all have a firm grasp on that. We also have 'local Ethics' which may differ from ethics in other places, but are 'our' traditional ethics and were established in the 70's by Steve (and a few climbers before him.. though there aren't many much older than he - sorry Steve! had to get that in there!) and his climbing partners at that time.

[*Chris*]

*** and so a pissing match ensued ***

Cara's last point raises an interesting question. Should 'local ethics' be determined by those who originally established the climbing scene/community/area. Or, ought those ethics to be determined by the active members of the climbing scene/community/area. Luckily, there is considerable overlap in our area making the debate easier; however, choosing the latter certainly leads to a more inclusive process. I certainly don't ever remember being asked for input in defining these unwritten rules. I'll leave it at that though before I derail this thread.

So... back on point... it's now 4:30 on Friday. Where's this new spot? I need to figure out my weekend!

[granite_grrl]

*** and so a pissing match ensued ***

Cara's last point raises an interesting question. Should 'local ethics' be determined by those who originally established the climbing scene/community/area. Or, ought those ethics to be determined by the active members of the climbing scene/community/area. Luckily, there is considerable overlap in our area making the debate easier; however, choosing the latter certainly leads to a more inclusive process. I certainly don't ever remember being asked for input in defining these unwritten rules. I'll leave it at that though before I derail this thread.

So... back on point... it's now 4:30 on Friday. Where's this new spot? I need to figure out my weekend!

Ugh, thread drift again...but I find this one pretty interesting rather than the insulting road that Shawn, myself and some others started to go down (sorry! Long day at work without a chance to get out for food!).

Local ethics get established by the first people climbing there. They should be model and mentor to the people who come after them, which would generally mean those that come after would have similar ethics.

If people don't educate and mentor then their ways will slip and the new generation will have to invent their own ethics. The the previous generation has a problem the new ethics they should look at them selves and ask why they didn't spend more time teaching people new to the sport.

Of corse, with the popularity of gyms you see ton of people get into climbing not needing a mentor. This gym mentality can be a real issue in some areas. In an area with an abundance of gear climbing some bold lines should remain, but its also nice to have some safe crack climbs/bolted routes (if the rock lends itself to that). How much it leans one way or the other comes back to the ethics of the community, and stongly on those who have/are putting up lines.

[STeveA]

1.The route has now seen 2 onsights and neither climber used a cam, nor did they feel the need to use one.

2. Ethics for an area should be established by the active climbers. However, 1 of the things that active climbers should keep in mind is the areas history.

3. If you want to debate a climb, the last one we just put up on the cliff is a 5.9 X top rope route. The X rating may apply to the climber and/or belayer. The climb is called Shake and Break.

[martha]

3. If you want to debate a climb, the last one we just put up on the cliff is a 5.9 X top rope route. The X rating may apply to the climber and/or belayer. The climb is called Shake and Break.

Charming! Sounds like a route that Fred and I did a few years back on the left side of Stairway Wall called 'death trap'... he recommended in the guidebook that no one ever repeat it!

[Joe]

Hey, this is fun! I wanna play too...

I just got back from NH, climbed some recently bolted climbs at Whitehorse below Echo Roof (recommended) but the bolts were very spaced, so I took along some cams and used them. This is typical practice in NH. I believe NH has been setting the standard for ethics in the northeast for the past century, and NB has always followed it. I hope that NB'ers will always respect that tradition and not bolt perfectly good gear cracks. We climb natural rock for excitement, adventure and beauty, not just fitness. Sport and gym climbing are fun but there should be limits. France may bolt crack climbs, but they also chisel and glue holds. We're not that desperate for new routes, are we?

Peej, do you wash trucks?