Who climbs in the Upper Tier???

[Joe]

Please help me in tracking the amount of traffic the Upper Tier receives.

[Andrew]

Sounds like a loaded question, Joe

[Matt Peck]

K. I just got back from a wicked day on the Upper tier. Warmed up on Adventure Pedestre (a kickin testpiece 5.7 for all you burgeoning leaders out there) then got on the 11 a just to the right, which was great, then on Hole in my Pocket 11a (awesome), then Tweety Bird 10c (awesome) Taz 11a (cool and technical) and finished up lapping The Great Balancing act 10b (you see where Im going with this?). My question is, why don't these routes get done more often?!? I mean you have to take a stick clip up there, for sure, but with that done, most of these routes are of high quality, and might only need a couple swipes with a brush to put in fine sending condition. In my opinion, this is a fantastic wall for climbers looking to improve their game. Tons of routes of high quality, with cool problems, very reasonably protected in most cases (exempting the runout first bolts) and most of them are right side by side! Is it the walk that's keeping people away? cause that just seems kind of stupid, pardon my uncouthness. You're allready walking a good distance to pluck random jems. Add a couple hundred meters and get in a killer day!
Allright. I guess Im just a little worked up on the subject. I just can't believe that the place goes overlooked so often. Especially now that the closure is restricting a lot of terrain. Anyways, some food for thought, and hopefully we'll see some more folks up there.
Incidentally, I did see a crew of Frederictoners new to the outdoor scene up there today, so good on you folks.
Also, Great balancing act is super sweet. You think that first cam is manky, but damn did it work well. Very technical but well protected crux. A must-try.

[Fred]

I climb up there regularly.

[Rosie]

We climbed up there last weekend. It was awesome, although a little wet. We did Monsieur Torpedo (awesome 5.9 sport), Most Unprecedented (10.a sport), and D-day (10 something, mixed). Those routes are all on the far right of the wall. Monsieur Torpedo is a great sport climb for those who like crimps (like me). Most unprecedented is a nice line too, although I find the third clip a little sketchy, and the distance between the third and fourth bolts a little intimidating. Mind you, I found out after I led it that there's supposed to be a piece in there. But I agree - Upper Tier is awesome.

[Burley]

Burley Disclaimer: These are his opinions and he is not complaining or trashing anyone or any route. I like upper tier... when it is dry... and gear is adequate.

Upper Tier in a nut shell (Yes there are exceptions):

Bring a stick clip and you won't have an issue with the first bolt. No reason to sprain or break an ankle to avoid stick clipping... Unless you drink brawndo.

You get on a route with 5 or 6 bolts and it takes 1 piece of gear somewhere. You have no idea what size it takes so you have to bring 4 or 5 cams along for the ride. Lots of people that climb in Welsford only lead sport so this is limiting and probably why not everyone climbs there. Sunnyside is a better option for sport routes. Yes, I understand this the "ethic" and was up to the person that established the line, but still... it is limiting to those people that only lead sport and probably why not everyone climbs there. Other problem is this some of the gear placements blow donkey arse... some are bomber. 5 bolts and 1 piece... I don't call that mixed... I call that missing a bolt. 1 or 2 bolts and 4 or 5 placements... I call that mixed... i.e. waltz, strata factor and waterfall layback (couldn't resist). Yeah Yeah... I know.

I hope no one is going to chop a bolt because it is used rather than 1 crap placement on a route. If you bolt a crack I think it is a different story.

Other reason for low traffic: Dirt and old bolts.

Just me responding to M@ as to why more don't climb at UT.

[Adam]

i climb there and enjoy it. reasons to not make it up there...

1 - it's a the far end of the cliff and so takes the longest to reach
2 - the rock there tends to sweat... so on a hot dry day the rock can still be damp there.

and i agree with Burley's opinion about the 'mixed' routes up there. add the 1 bolt they need and be done with it.

[martha]

Most of the 'mixed' routes up there were done years ago and using an 'ethic' that was set at that time. Fred has recently put bolts on some older TR projects, and we put up an easy (5.6) 'mixed' route a number of years back using the same ethic that is held for the rest of that particular cliff. I agree, hauling up 5 or 6 cams and a set of nuts for one placement kinda sucks if you are out for a day of sport climbing. But lets be honest, the 4 or 5 cams don't weigh that much, or take up that much space so it isn't that big of a deal.

However, I also enjoy that Cochrane lane is predominantly a 'traditional cliff' has more or less held true to the standards set years ago. Whenever I go to Welsford (Cochrane Lane) I take draws and gear as I can be sure that I'll need both. If I want to 'sport climb' only, I head to St. Andrews or Sunny Side. This is just me though, but I prefer trad anyways.

All this to say that I enjoy climbing at Upper Tier (this is a new realization for me) as when I started climbing I HATED the hike up there. ugg. hehe. now I'll take the extra exercise whenever I can get it.

[Burley]

I also appreciate the way things have been done in Welsford and was answering M@'s question as to why more people don't climb up there... wet at times (as Adam said), dirt, mixed routes, old bolts. Yeah I would prefer if one more bolt would be added to save me the hassle, but I really don't care.

Better question would be why wasn't anyone out yesterday?

My preference is for trad. Sport makes me stronger and better overall, but I'm not a sport climber. I like it, but I love trad. If there wasn't any risk it wouldn't be fun. It would be like top roping all day long.

If you get on a mixed route and think it is a sport route and can't get yourself out the situation you shouldn't be on the darn route in the first place. I'm really not saying add bolts to any of those routes. I get on them occasionally and don't mind taking the gear if I have to... it is my choice to climb them or not.

Rosie didn't take the gear (I wasn't with her). If she would have fallen above where the gear goes or not able to get out of a situation that would have been her and the belayers fault... not he or she that put the line up.

Who doesn't love the moments when you're tell yourself: "Come on... don't fall... You'll freaking deck... keep it together... just gotta... no... no... ahhh... oh yeah!". Scary suff is fun when you don't get hurt. My point on Scary stuff is don't ask why everyone isn't getting on it.... you should know... it is because it is scary. I don't test myself every weekend... but I think I test myself as much as anyone... maybe more considering how hard I don't climb. You have to pick your days or you'll get hurt. Over time some things become less scary because you and your head get better. Just don't ask "Why doesn't anyone climb (route name here)?" When it is known for being scary. You should be more like... "Want to get scared, maybe take a long fall and not die (or die)? If so, climb (route name here)."

[Adam]

nah, friggin grid bolt it. i wanna do a traverse 25' off the deck the entire length of upper tier... .

who's with me?!

[Matt Peck]

Allright, that's a good arguement Burley. I'd hesitate to label all or most of the routes on the UT as "scary" though. I'd understand that reaction if I were saying "why doesn't everybody go and lead La Peur?". The answer is obvious: It's a route that actively tries to kill you.
The routes Rosie mentioned are well protected (you might need a piece for the latter two, but it's a safe fall) as well as being classic. To the other end, Talasmasca, Steal Your Face and Evolution make up another bookend of awesome climbs. Adventure Pedestre is one of the best moderate routes in welsford, and is easy to sew up. Great balancing act, Tweety bird, Yosimite Sam and Bugs Bunny are all easily protectable as well. Some of these bolts are getting a little rusty though, so I understand a certain ammount of hesitancy.
I guess my major motivation with this post is to note that there are a wicked selection of routes availible here. It's not as "plaisir" http://www.climbingguidebg.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=442&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
as sunnyside, but that was the way of the times. It should be mentioned again that most of these routes can be very well protected, provided the proper piece is at hand and a stick clip is handy. Perhaps if these climbs were pursued with the notion that they are trad climbs with an above average number of bolts would appease.

And I think the real question, buddy, is where was everyone on saturday night? eh?
Hehehe. I don't blame you. the flies didn't make very good company.

[Matt Peck]

Also, As far as sweating rock is concerned, I find Sunnyside kind of bad in this regard. Though it gets better every year with more traffic cleaning up the face.
And speaking of regrading, Eric, what do you think about Black Dwarf? New beta makes that feel like a hard 9.
Did you get Celestial Motion yet?

[Burley]

M@,

There are some wicked routes on UT. No they are not scary... I would say few of the classics I've been on are scary. I haven't been on Talamasca (always wet), but Steal your face is nice. The upper bit of the Waltz is primo as well.

Adventure Pedestre was nice and not too tough... want head challenge at 5.7? get on Puff the magic dragon... I thought the gear was terrible with the exception of the lower bit and at the roof.... don't fall I loved it.

Adam down graded Black Dwarf to 5.9 once the new beta started to be used. I got Celestial Motion a few weeks back.... Roise got it right after me... but I won the cheesecake

[martha]

actually Burley, I won the cheesecake with an OS of CM last summer.

Another route that I really like on UT is' Be still my bleeding heart'. Crazy balancy/reachy/crimpy/weird (completely my style) at the bottom and then nice climbing at the top. I don't think it sees much traffic at all, but I've been on it a number of times over the last years.

Its on my project list. Maybe I'll get it once the kids are in college......

[Adam]

Adam down graded Black Dwarf to 5.9 once the new beta started to be used. I got Celestial Motion a few weeks back.... Roise got it right after me... but I won the cheesecake

also, there's a slightly easier alt sequence to Celestial Motion now that was shown to me and i since have tried... i'm not sure what Jones and i were thinking at the time but there's a big hold on the right just into the dirty stuff lol... guess we didn't see it for the dirt.

not sure how much it takes off the grade, but maybe a letter or two.

[motanb]

Speaking of the UT wall.... Joes Attic is up there too (i suppose, a part of ut in a way); my thought is; I think 847 is a super nice route! What is the community feelings towards this classic sport route? all bolts, anchors, great views and rock!!

[Nihoa]

it all comes down to a question of style, dont think you can definitively say a place rocks or sucks cus everyone is looking for something different. i dont like upper tier cus its not my style of climbing but i can see where people would like it. i dont think i would head back cus i found the movement all more or less the same: reach up to crimps, hike feet, repeat. there were also a bunch of really creepy weirdos up there that enjoyed my cam deflowering far too much

[Rosie]

Cara, Erick and I had a bet about celestial motion... If he gets it clean on lead first I have to make him a cheesecake, and vice versa. So Erick manned up pretty good and got it on lead, and then I had to show I could do it too and led it right after him. He opted for a maple pie though, rather than a cheesecake.

When we were up on UT a couple weeks ago the rocks were sweating pretty bad. Stuff would look totally dry but when you felt the rock it would be slick.

In the spirit of the original post, I could happily climb up on UT once a month or so. There are a lot of routes up there that I have never been on but would love to try sometime, such as Quiet and Poche, to name a few.

[*Chris*]

The Upper Tier, (like most things) is nice in moderation. I was all suited up for Adventure Pedestre last time I was there. I made it up the corner ramp all calm, cool, and collected only to find the rock under the roof sweating like a stuffed pig. How about that for a switch! I did finally get on Most Unpresedented and while I found bolts "well-spaced" between #3 and#4 they were right where I wanted them (since my ropegun had the draws hung). I'll take an extra cam next time and have a look around.

[Fred]

Most Unprecendented requires two cam placements from what I recall. A 0.5 BD before the bolt just before the dyno/deadpoint and then a 1.0 BD after the dyno on your right as you head up the ramplike feature.

[martha]

He opted for a maple pie though, rather than a cheesecake.

Damn good deal for you.. Cheesecakes are a lot of work to make! but very worth it in the end!

In the spirit of the original post, I could happily climb up on UT once a month or so. There are a lot of routes up there that I have never been on but would love to try sometime, such as Quiet and Poche, to name a few.

Poche is a SWEET line. Another route on my 'list' whenever I get back at it. I got it on TR last summer and would like to lead it. Quiet is a bit of a one move wonder for me. Basically when I reach the first move from the ground I can get the rest of the route but that first move is a biggie. The rest is just crimpy/balancy... fun though for a super short line.

Great climbing in the Attic for sure Tom. I agree.

[PaulB]

Yes, I understand this the "ethic" and was up to the person that established the line, but still... it is limiting to those people that only lead sport and probably why not everyone climbs there.

Ethics (i.e. minimal use of bolts) were part of it, but keep in mind that when we were putting up routes there in the 90s, the concept of anyone leading "only sport" was pretty much non-existent in Welsford. Almost everyone had a rack. In most cases people knew exactly what piece was needed on a particular route and would simply take it and a backup piece in case they dropped the first one. Only having to take a couple of small cams or nuts and a fistful of QDs up a route seemed pretty casual compared to the full rack & slings needed for most climbs in Welsford.

Other reason for low traffic: Dirt and old bolts.

With most of the bolts up there getting on to 15 (or more) years old, it might be worthwhile to inspect a few of them, but I'd be surprised if there are problems any more serious than rusted washers and hangers.

2 - the rock there tends to sweat... so on a hot dry day the rock can still be damp there.

Interesting.... I don't recall moisture being a problem aside from a couple spots (e.g. Feathers).

[Fred]

With most of the bolts up there getting on to 15 (or more) years old, it might be worthwhile to inspect a few of them, but I'd be surprised if there are problems any more serious than rusted washers and hangers.

Actually it's the opposite. The hangers, which are stainless steel, are in great shape and the bolts are rusted like they had been there for 50 years. For some reason, most of the bolts that went up in Welsford in the 80's and 90's were only mild steel or galvanized steel.

[STeveA]

Stainless steel bolts only became the norm within the last decade. Before then almost all bolts installed were mild steel. If you compare the mild steel 3/8 bolts to the previous 1/4" rawl bolts you will see how much better they are. Keep in mind that sport climbing was still evolving, and now a lot of sites about bolt installation are recommending 1/2" stainless steel bolts. In a few years people will probably look back and shake their heads at how people used small 3/8" bolts to protect climbs.

[chossmonkey]

With most of the bolts up there getting on to 15 (or more) years old, it might be worthwhile to inspect a few of them, but I'd be surprised if there are problems any more serious than rusted washers and hangers.

Actually it's the opposite. The hangers, which are stainless steel, are in great shape and the bolts are rusted like they had been there for 50 years. For some reason, most of the bolts that went up in Welsford in the 80's and 90's were only mild steel or galvanized steel.

Its funny how far away 15-20 years seems like when you are there in the moment drilling a bolt. Like Steve says, in the future people will probably look back and wonder why we used 3/8" bolts even though they are SS now. At least for heavy use/high load bolts.


In general its impossible to tell how good or bad a bolt is without pulling it, but (for reference Fred, if you recall the rusted turds passing as bolts at White Bluff) they are probably much stronger than you think they will be. Most of the bolts we have replaced have been much stronger than I thought they would be. This all depends on how strong the bolts were when they were new too. Not all stud bolts were created equally and some were quite weak compared to other brands that looked exactly the same. We lso have a lot of self-drills here. I think they called them "star drives" back in the day when they were placing them, but are different than the real Star drives . Those are very weak. I pulled one out of a belay with my wrench one time.

I think (I assume) most of the bolts I have chopped and replaced have had a pretty good carbon content in them compared to some cheepo bolts I broke when practicing my chopping. The old bolts broke off much harder than the new practice bolts. The cheep bolts just sheared right off pretty cleanly, normally towards the back of the hole at the narrowest part by the clip. The old bolts broke near the surface and the brake was jagged and kind of crystally.

When I have been replacing hardware out of our pocket as long as they aren't known weak bolts like 1/4"ers, self-drills, or the bolts I break off break to easily I have just been doing the ones that would be disastrous if they broke.

MEC might donate or sell hardware at a discount to the club for anchor replacement.

[Fred]

Maybe... but I've seen 3/8" galvanized bolts go in NB in the last five years.

[STeveA]

I guess it boils down to how much emphasis you put on other climbers. Galvanized can be just as strong as SS, and in some climates may last as long. In our salt ladden atmosphere they will deteriate quicker. However for the first ascent the galvanized is more than adequate, it just sucks for later climbers.

[Fred]

Actually, studies have shown that there is virtually no trace of salt ladden air unless you are directly near breaking surf. Unless you are within 1km this should not be a factor.

It's not unfortunate for the other climbers as much as it is for the rock itself. If we climb for another few hundred years then the cliff will be littered with old scars. Prolonging the replacement time should always be of most importance, not cost.

[Adam]

then maybe we should be using titanium! lol... can't imagine how much they'd cost....

[Fred]

For example...

8 Four 7 was bolted in 1995 and Joint Venture was bolted in 1994.

Joint Venture looks like it was bolted in the 70's whereas 8 Four 7 looks like it was bolted yesterday. The routes were bolted about the same time. When was the SS turning point?