Waterfall Layback M2

[Burley]

Waterfall Layback M2

I think the description should be changed to reflect that Waterfall Layback is now a mixed route (2 bolts on the face). I didn't have to use much gear at the bottom... just clipped the two bolts. I actually took the nuts off my rack and hung them on the first bolt... why bring what you don't need. The crux could use a scrub on face if anyone gets bored and wants to do some cleaning.

Burley

[martha]

And when are you going to tell us you are joking?

[Matt Peck]

I didn't really think he was.

[Burley]

No joke at all. Should go down as M2.

I eaisly clipped the bolt on the new direct start to slippery and the new bolt that was added to the original slippery line while leading up the ramp of Waterfall Laback. No crazy reach involved... just used long runners, but probably fine with a regular old quick draw.

Why the heck would anyone climb past a bolt and not clip it? So to not call Waterfall Layback M2 is just silly... or retarded if I may offend.

Why not add a bolt to the bottom section that leads up to these 3 routes... it is easy, the gear blows arse, and it is usually crovered in crap, wet, or slick. Might as well make Slippery a sport line and put a bolt at the top as well (may have been done, but I didn't see it).

[martha]

No joke at all. Should go down as M2.

I eaisly clipped the bolt on the new direct start to slippery and the new bolt that was added to the original slippery line while leading up the ramp of Waterfall Laback. No crazy reach involved... just used long runners, but probably fine with a regular old quick draw.

Why the heck would anyone climb past a bolt and not clip it? So to not call Waterfall Layback M2 is just silly... or retarded if I may offend.

Why not add a bolt to the bottom section that leads up to these 3 routes... it is easy, the gear blows arse, and it is usually crovered in crap, wet, or slick. Might as well make Slippery a sport line and put a bolt at the top as well (may have been done, but I didn't see it).

I agree, if the bolt is there, and that close, people will clip it. Just like all those trad lines in Europe that are bolted.....the bolts are there, may as well use them. It isn't my preference, but it is what it is. HOWEVER... this doesn't really reflect Welsford Ethics....

Okay, if the bolt is close enough to reach that easily..... isn't that too close? Was Slippery just runout in that section before? (I've never climbed/led slippery when wet) or was it a trad section?

[Burley]

Cara,

Slippery was maybe a bit runout in that section, but you wouldn't die if you fell. There is gear below your feet and/or a ways off to the left. I can't say for sure... just looked that way to me. Never led it. Fred could tell ya.

My preference is not to have a bolt in sight or reach when I'm on a gear line... especially a sweet gear line that is nicer (to me) than the sport lines right of it.... what can I say I like the trad action. It didn't really take much (but did take some) away from the climb since the bolts were only protecting the easy ramp... kinda like wear a condom during forplay and taking it off for the big show.

Burley

[STeveA]

I think to call Waterfall Layback M2 is getting a bit rediculous. If you want to get picky lets call Gollums Cave a sport route since it is easy to clip the bolts on the sport climb right of Leviathan (I forget the name). Also we could always pop out left and clip the bolts on waterfall Arete from Waterfall Layback with a couple of slings on the bolts.

The first bolt on Slippery Direct is well away from Waterfall Layback unless you are climbing it incorrectly. You would have to traverse right from the route for a good couple of moves to clip it. It would then give you a good pendulum onto a ledge if you were to fall. Waterfall Layback is started off to the left and uphill. You traverse right past where the belay tree used to be and then access the ramp from the left.

The second bolt is reachable from the ramp (which was the whole point of placing it), but since there is no need to place any pro in that section of Waterfall Layback it neither adds nor detracts from the climb. The bolts do not protect the moves in the crux section of the route by any stretch of the imagination.

Slippery When Wet is one of the nicest routes in Welsford, but was not climbed because of the runout to the first bolt. It was protectable by climbing 10' up the ramp and placing pro but you still had a nasty fall onto the ramp. That problem has been eliminated by the addition of the bolt to the start.

[martha]

I haven't been to Welsford since the fall.. (yes, I'm going crazy. I feel like a druggie needing a fix) so I haven't seen these bolts. From Steve's description they sounds like they are okay.

Since they are only in the easy rampy section of WF layback i don't see the harm since they are protecting an otherwise unclimbed good sport route.

oh.. and Burley, Nice condom analogy... I nearly peed my pants when I read it. Maybe we could use that on the new R&I t-shirts?

[motanb]

I agree Eric. One can now easily clip the two bolts your referring to as they head up the ramp to the crack. If one were to climb the route without any historical knowledge I believe it would be a very obvious consideration ,at the very least, to clip the bolts that are more or less in your "lane of travel".
So, in any future descriptions of waterfall layback including a m2 reference seems to be perfectly reasonable.

[Burley]

I know it is ridiculous... Changing it to M2 will never happen and I don't really care if it does. You'll see my point below.

Don't get me wrong... I wasn't complaining about the bolts now or when I was climbing… Yes, I would prefer they weren't there, but they are needed for those other two routes... catch 22... and in that case bolt er up. The reason I brought is up is that Tom mentioned the direct start somewhere and I began thinking about this.

I climbed the route the same way I've seen every person ever climb the route (maybe we are all off route, but it ain't the crux so who cares... always thought it was the path of least resistance that wins)... I started at the old dead stump (my foot was on it), then up zig zagging through the easy stuff, place a crap cam in a horizontal to keep me from dying if I slip while zig zagging, then up to the start of the ramp. I was seriously standing on the ramp and clipped both bolts with total ease, no face moves were done… no traversing… nothing. Yes, I would have a swing if I fell, but the fall would have been better than the fall if protected with gear on the ramp… big swing there too… and closer to the ground or on the stump. I know where I went and where I was when I clipped the bolts. I can also tell you all with Wanker certainty every cam I placed and what the rock looked like. I was on the same route everyone climbs and calls waterfall layback… right or wrong... path of least resistance.

In my opinion those bolts make it safer than gear in the ramp... my opinion. Also, I wouldn’t ever do Slippery without that new bolt... now someday I might.

Steve,
Not giving you a hassle in the least… seriously... Not that it matters, but everything done with those two routes is cool with me. I think the words to my belayer were “Sweet!... There’s a bolt… I’m going to leave my rack of nuts here for ya” (reason: I keep them on the same side

I know and recall a few people asking you to add that bolt on Slippery... glad it is there. As far as I'm concerned you can add whatever to whatever...

All,
My point is this: Why is it Ok with the ethics police to have bolts within reach of a classic trad line and not Ok with you all to add bolt rap anchors on climbs... for convenience (top roping/rapping), marginally improved safety (top roping/rapping), or to save a tree (top roping/rapping)? Damn I hate trees! Like someone told me... "remember what we are... rock climbers"

[chossmonkey]

My point is this: Why is it Ok with the ethics police to have bolts within reach of a classic trad line and not Ok with you all to add bolt rap anchors on climbs... for convenience (top roping/rapping), marginally improved safety (top roping/rapping), or to save a tree (top roping/rapping)? Damn I hate trees! Like someone told me... "remember what we are... rock climbers"

In S.Onterrible most tree anchors have been replaced with bolted anchors, whether a belay or if used as intermediate pro. It is actually illegal to sling trees in a lot of the areas. At the New River Gorge most popular routes with tree anchors now have bolts in an effort to save wear on the trees. I think some of the tree anchors at the Gunks have also been replaced with bolts. As routes see more traffic it only makes sense to give the trees a break.

[Shawn B]

My point is this: Why is it Ok with the ethics police to have bolts within reach of a classic trad line and not Ok with you all to add bolt rap anchors on climbs... for convenience (top roping/rapping), marginally improved safety (top roping/rapping), or to save a tree (top roping/rapping)? Damn I hate trees! Like someone told me... "remember what we are... rock climbers"

IMNSHO because he did exactly what should be done. He just did it. He didn't feel the need to ask the 'O GREAT INTERNET GODS' prior to his actions. You can look a number of places in Welsford that this has been done and there is absolutely no mention of the alleged ethically wrong bolt. This is because most of the climbers climb and the lurkers lurk...and they don't usually do both. So they don't ever know about the alleged infraction because it wasn't posted about online...thus if they don't know about it they never enlighten us with their ethically superior opinion. If something is done being grossly ethically wrong, the climbers will usually attempt to correct it as has been done in the past. Online climbers rave on.

[*Chris*]

I think the description should be changed to reflect that Waterfall Layback is now a mixed route (2 bolts on the face)...

A poignant post. Thanks Burley. So did you get it clean? As for your point... you're correct. The path of least resistance defines the route. Anything else is contrived. This route is a classic and certainly isn't contrived. The description should now read M(2)

... HOWEVER... this doesn't really reflect Welsford Ethics....

Really? Ethics (in a climbing sense) are dictated by the active community and are subject to change. I'm not certain that the ethic you hold true is that which currently guides behaviour at Cochrane late. It may be... but it may not be. There is mounting evidence that the local ethic is changing.

I think to call Waterfall Layback M2 is getting a bit rediculous. If you want to get picky lets call Gollums Cave a sport route since it is easy to clip the bolts on the sport climb right of Leviathan (I forget the name). Also we could always pop out left and clip the bolts on waterfall Arete from Waterfall Layback with a couple of slings on the bolts.

I think those two examples are a stretch (figuratively, and literally).

In S.Onterrible most tree anchors have been replaced with bolted anchors, whether a belay or if used as intermediate pro...

A prominent ecologist in S. Onterrible recently published a book on the cliff-top cedar forests of the Escarpment. He discusses the mortality induced by climbers and other recreational users in it. I can give you the reference if interested.

IMNSHO because he did exactly what should be done. He just did it. He didn't feel the need to ask the 'O GREAT INTERNET GODS' prior to his actions...

This sure sounds like a call to action to me. Maybe you're right. But I tend to believe that some degree of community consultation prior to controversial action is a good way to avoid disputes before they occur. Ever heard that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Besides... if there were a true internet god (Google "Flying Spaghetti Monster"), what makes you think he or she would give (content moderated).

[Burley]

I love it! Let the ranting and Burley bashing begin.

Let me start by saying this: Shawn and Steve... Love ya all and have a lot of respect for you both. I just can't resist stirring the pot sometimes. Just ask Rosie about my incessant smart-arse teasing.

In response to all…

I managed to find another set of nuts after the bolts and I got it clean…. Probably only because I was off route and got to drop weight by hanging my NUTS on that bolt hanger… come on… laugh… it is a joke.

I don't think it should be M2… but I guess it kind of is… I clipped two bolts… guess that means there are two bolts on the route, but I don’t care what the guidebook says… M2… G… whatever… cool route and there is still gear to be used as well.

I think the local ethics are getting confused to complaining (content moderate)… like me I guess, but I didn’t mean to make it seem as though I was complaining. Erick likes bolts…

I think consultation before changing and existing routes (anchor, bolt, whatever) is important if you were not involved in establishing the route in order to keep the peace. It is like buying your buddy’s wife a new dress... you should probably ask first.

Putting up a new line and adding a bolt anchor to it where a tree might be present is my decision and the internet gods of rock will not be consulted. If someone chops them they'll get a smack in the nose.

Anyone that chops bolts on existing lines also deserves this treatment in my world... worse if you don't man-up and let the folks know it was you.

If someone is insinuating that I spend more time on this forum than I do climbing I think you might be mistaken... didn't see any of you bug fearing pansies out on Tues or Wed night now did I? (I'm teasing Shawn )

See you hosers this weekend. Rosie and I will be climbing... like I do every weekend when it isn’t raining to below zero.

[Adam]

The first bolt on Slippery Direct is well away from Waterfall Layback unless you are climbing it incorrectly. You would have to traverse right from the route for a good couple of moves to clip it.

i would disagree... seems like it is right beside you when you start up the ramp.

[martha]

It is like buying your buddy’s wife a new dress... you should probably ask first.

You don't have to ask. Fred will never buy me a new dress. He bought me a couple of new cams once and they ended up on his rack.

I know you were talking about me Erick. My sizing is a bit odd at the moment, but by september I should be a 4ish.

Man, I just read this stuff at the moment because I'm living vicariously through all of you. (and I know you are all wishing you were me at this point in time too... come on.. admit it) And I just say crap to stir the pot. I mean, I have to entertain myself somehow.

Have fun climbing this weekend everyone... in the bugs or not... Put your hands in some awesome cracks for me.

[Matt Peck]

Is that how you got into your current predicament Cara? Remember your pro people, when you go after cracks.