Climb Eastern Canada

by **tracstarr** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:47 am

Ok, FIRSTLY, lets NOT make this a discussion about the 'ethics' of bolting! I just want to know from those with experience in bolting. How do you do it 'corectly'? Drill-clean-bolt? how deep do you drill? bolt lengths/sizez? 13mm? What about placement? Top-rope the climb and just find spots that are comfortable to stop and clip? sounds logical. What about numbers and distance between? Why closer? why farther? mostly dictated by a spot considerd a good spot to clip from? Which way should the hanger face for a left handed clip? or right handed? what other info do i need? anyone want to show me when it warms up? who's got a drill i can borrow?

by **martha** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:54 am

Fred is the one you need to talk to. He is a master. We've put up 15 routes or more.

It isn't hard, but you have to do it right.

Pick a line, put in an anchor. clean the line until there is no moss etc on it. then climb it. do the moves, where would you be comfortable clipping from? then test the rock in those places...is it hollow? is it solid? once you find those places, you bolt them. drill the hole, blow it out, pound in the bolt, and tighten the nut on the end, but don't over tighten it as you could break it.

That is the VERY SHORT Version of it all.

I am in Halifax occasionally, and would go out with you if you were interested. Also, Karel Allard is going to be moving to Halifax and has experience. So does Ghislain when he is back from France.

Bottom line, do it right the first time, and talk to Fred.

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:07 am

I really don't think this is a topic to be discussing on a forum. I've made mistakes in bolting and everyone does especially when they are new at it. There are tons of variables. Martha's approach to bolting is not necessarily correct. Talk to others who may have strong opinions about bolting ground up on lead.

I hope this thread will be locked if it goes anywhere towards bolting education. Discussing ethics is ok but technicality can't be learned here.

by **mike** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:30 am

Thread locking is beautiful flowers!!!

Nothing more nothing less- loose the plot on thread locking will ya???

This is a chat page- let's chat fer christ sakes.

If people wanna chat about how to operate a drill- let 'em. Seriously dood- what is the problem? Huh? What is the problem?

Did you grow up in an environment where you wern't allowed to do anything fun or what? One of those round houses with no corners or stairways or electrical plug ins or pets or WHAT?????

How in the hell did all you folks who feel that threads need to be locked get into climbing in the first place???

'Cause you figure that you are superior to everyone else and that you get to do all the fun stuff but most of society is simply not intelligent enough to make informed decisions?

Give it a rest.

Or lock me

Mike in Houston.

by **Stevo** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:42 am

Agreed Mike,

It's pathetic when the moderators say "you can talk about this but not that"
This opressive attitude only confirms the reservations that some of us had about abandoning the relatively free speech CNS message board and joining this one where autonomy was lost.
I don't see any harm in someone saying how they put in bolts, I can describe how I chop 'em out!!

Steve

by **martha** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:48 am

I think that Fred's concern is that people will use the discussion as a 'how to guide'. but it really isn't any different than talking about anchors, belay techniques or other things related to climbing.

There is a disclaimer in the terms of use that states

"

Climbeasterncanada.com is not responsible for messages posted on the CEC.com Forums or the content therein. Unless expressly stated otherwise, this includes messages posted by Climbeasterncanada.com personnel, representatives, moderators, administrators, and their agents by proxy. You use the site and the information contained within it at your own risk.

Climbing is a sport where you can be killed, maimed, or crippled even if you do everything right. Certain types of climbing can be almost as dangerous as driving to the crag! Proper technique and experience may limit the risks involved, and you are advised to seek professional instruction prior to attempting the activities depicted and discussed on the site. But in the end, you must accept these risks of your own volition, and we make no warranty that anything on the site is fit for the purpose of instruction, guidance, or consumption.

Everything on this site could be completely, dangerously false. We cannot accept liability for your actions should you choose to rely on the information which users have contributed to the site."

so I say, Giver. Talk about what you want. but remember...climbing IS dangerous.

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:00 pm

I believe my point was that I would hate to see someone go placing bolts from something they learned on a chat forum. Wow! I'm really a bad guy these days.

ok ok

here's how you do it Tracstar

1. make sure you use galvanized steel bolts so they don't rust
2. for your anchor you can buy some open shuts (search internet) since they are convenient for lowering off
3. 1/4" bolts should be plenty strong to hold a dynamic fall and I recommend a 1.5" deep stud
4. make sure to drill your hole 1" deep to accept the stud and leave room for the nut and hanger
5. if you can't find a 1/4" drill bit just use the closest metric size. It will do fine.
6. You can save yourself alot of time if you bolt on rappel since you won't half to walk back around.

The rest is pretty basic. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Safe bolting!

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:05 pm

Mike,

why so much hostility? Please send me private messages if you would like to address concerns or suggest improvements for the website. I'd also like to remind you to please try to keep your chat clean. We are grown-ups. Although they don't post often, we do have a lot of jr's (quite young) who visit this site to get beta on upcoming comps such as the TDB and other information. Please show a good example.

This goes to everyone.

Regards

Fred

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:11 pm

martha wrote:I think that Fred's concern is that people will use the discussion as a 'how to guide'. but it really isn't any different than talking about anchors, belay techniques or other things related to climbing.

Martha, you are quite wrong here. Webbing and gear anchors are made by the climber. Bolt safety is a function of the route developer so we put trust in the bolter.

What Fred was trying to say is there is much false information on the internet and something such as bolting should perhaps be discussed or demonstrated in person. You guys can talk about if you want to but I won't. My life might depend on information passed on over the WWW.

Peace.

by **The Mitt** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:23 pm

IMHO Fred is right (did I actualy say that) learning how to bolt here is bad, but its pretty cool that you asked before just going out and doing it.

I would suggest that you go with someone who is putting up a line and learn from them. I have scoped out a few lines this fall you are more than welcome to come out and giver a go

As for placements the biggest mistake I have made so far is when bolting on rappell I put the first bolt to be clipped to close to the ground. I find when rappelling getting a good distance from ground can be deciving. Now I mark potential placements with chalk. CNS has a drill. I plan on going out to put some stuff up in the next 2-4 weeks depending on weather. send me an email if ya wanna head out.

I personally think that a good guide for bolt placements are 2 routes here in NS, All the rage, and that one at railway craig that Sean T put up.

Sean K

by **The Mitt** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:28 pm

Hey stevo we having a meeting of the "The Stoners Climbing Group" soon. Need to look for more routes

The weather is starting to get nicer so I can come out of my hole.

Mitt

by **tracstarr** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:08 pm

firstly, i have no intention of taking what's said here as absolute right way to bolt. There are definatly questions that can be answered without concern, Like for a left handed clip what way should the hanger face? or does it matter? Come on now, i'm not going to go bolt something as i see fit from what's written on the internet or otherwise. It's not only the saftey of myself, but everyone else using the bolts. I WILL learn from someone with experience - hopefully there are those willing to show me. But then that poses the question.... just b/c you have experience in doing it, does it mean you're doing it right? nope. definatly not. so who IS doing it right? I guess that's a community decision.

Anyway, more input and info on bolting technique and the other questions I posed in the original post and this one would be cool

by **mike** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:10 pm

Fred,

I'm not being hostile- I'm being agressive. I think that this is a great site and a wonderful way to unite the climbing communtiy.

I think it's a necessary tool for communication within the climbing community.

I want it to flourish, not be trampled by moderation.

I aggresively support the idea of open and free discussion.

Mike

by **johnb** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:26 pm

Tracstar, I think you are wrong to not want to first consider ethics, when it comes to bolting. Half of the questions you listed are ethics questions, such as the where to place and how to do it (on lead or rappel). I am not going to take a stance one way or the other at this point, but just remember, when you place a bolt you are scarring the rock and determining the path of others in the future. Once you place a bolt the mark it leaves is permenant for all to see. I think you are doing the right thing by asking questions before proceding to drill, to not consider others opinion is doing a diservice to the community as a whole. I urge you to read the history of local and non local climbing areas and educate yourself and adopt a personal ethical stance on bolting before bothering to bolt any routes. CAMP 4 is an excellent book to begin with, discussing Yosemite - the birthpalce of modern north american free climbing. Ethics are the big question when it comes to bolting anything. By placing a bolt and changing the rock you are taking away a piece of unaltered stone from future generations who may be able to climb it clean. So you have to be able to justify to yourself wether this best serves the current climbing and non-climbing community as well as future communities or not. Only you can answer the question for yourself. Remember its easier to do than to undo.

john bowles

by **dcentral** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:31 pm

Last time Tracstarr brought up this topic, he was personally attacked on the old CNS messageboard. So I can see why he doesn't want to talk about ethics here since the last discussion wasn't very helpful.

I think he just wants to hear opinions on technique. I think he's well aware of the ethics on the issue at this point.

Is it possible though to stay on topic in this forum. Why do all threads have to come back too locking threads. If you want to talk about this subject that's what the general or site suggestion forum is for -- its becoming a really boring and tired topic.

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:32 pm

Mike,
That's cool. I respect that and I respect your opinion on this issue. Don't shoot the moderator.

as for locking the bolting thread... perhaps I should have said... I hope no one will discuss their bolting techniques on a community forum but rather offer their services to go out and help someone who may otherwise make a mistake. My intent is not to control discussion.

Tracstarr,
please don't take my approach as negative and not wanting to help. It's simply better to discuss something like this in person. Please note that the info I gave you is completely what not to do. I'm sure you figured that out by now. But the truth of it is, someone could easily purpously mislead someone. Take Sean up on the offer and follow him out one day. When he bends a stud, you can ask him "is that supposed to happen?" hehe It's better to learn from someone you know and trust. Of course, like you said, how does that mean you know he's doing it right? you don't...

Peace all.

by **The Teth** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:58 pm

You should read the CNS Route Development Polity, on the Access section of the CNS Web page. There is some technical stuff and advice on space between bolts etc under the Procedures section of the policy.

by sb » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:02 pm

Sounds to me like tracstarr has already weighed the pros and cons and ethical considerations of bolting and has decided to proceed. He is asking for direction as to how to do it right the first time. People should be glad to offer their experience so it is done correctly. Sadly, he doesn't seem to be getting much assistance even though he asked. I guess the key is to not ask and many more will gladly offer their expertise. I have an older copy of R&I that has a great article on bolting. I will look and let you know the issue # and you should be able to order it from R&I.

by **Stevo** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:37 pm

This is a well worn topic, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record player, I would urge anyone contemplating bolting a line to please make sure that it hasn't been already climbed or is someones pet project. There have been many new routes put up since the publication of the current NS guide. If this turns out to be the case, generally the person who placed the bolts won't then remove them and repair the damage, and much bad feeling will result.

Of course, if it is a dripping green manky piece of choss then you are pretty safe.....oh I just realised that description will fit every crag in Nova Scotia! ha ha.

Stevo

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:29 pm

somtimes you do come accross a completely dirty line that has already been done as is the case for "Pharoh Fawcet" in Welsford. I never would have believed that anyone had climbed that route before I scrubbed it but elas it was done prior. The route remains traditional except that there is now a bolt belay at the top and the route is squeeky clean. A very fun line for anyone to try out. Ask around if you are unsure.

by **Guest** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:32 pm

You want to learn about bolting check out this site.

http://www.safeclimbing.com/education.htm

by **tracstarr** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:39 pm

i thought it was mostly agreed that the FAist for a route gets to decide the style? and if that's the case, if i send someones pet project before them then should I decide the style? not saying i'm going to go jump on all the projects out there... but they are projects and not yet sent, so why can't I send em and choose my style? sorry, this is now getting into ethics... you want ethics then lets start a new topic?

by **dcentral** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:52 pm

There's a spot out here near Nanaimo, where it's mostly all sport climbs. Just the nature of the rock. Any route that has marking tape on the rap bolts they ask that you stay off it until the person who put the bolts there climbs the line. That's who they deal with the FA.

But that's also a little different the bolts are put in before hand and there is no other way to really do the route.

by **martha** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:53 pm

If I put a lot of time into a route, cleaned, put anchors on it and just hadn't sent it yet, but was working it and you came along and freed it and bolted it in your style, I'd probably pull a Tonya Harding on you.

It is all about respect man. if it is an open project that is being worked and you know it is...then it isn't free for the taking.

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:16 pm

I usually mark a project with a flagging tape on the first bolt. Some just don't place the hangers untill they send. I trust people to leave a project untouched. There is a grace period for someone to send it of course. Sometimes, time, weather, injury, access might come into play. Use your judgement if the person is slacking or hogging.

by **Fred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:19 pm

I wanted to add... at the end of a bolt job you might be too tired or it might be too late to send the new project thus leaving it untill next time. If it's far away or weather doesn't co-operate or you can't make it out because of work or a wedding the route might sit there for a while untill you can return. I trust people to respect the grace period. It cost time and money to bolt a route.

I'd let someone know if I couldn't do it. Then I would "un"-red flag it.

by **tracstarr** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:38 pm

hmm, interesting. never seen a marked route like that. and hold on, don't start throwing things, never said i was going to go steal projects, just asked a valid question cuz i didn't know. Haven't been out and seen anything like that around here. I know of projects, and i know of some that have been there for a LONG time. so what's a good grace period? i mean if someone from NB comes here and starts a project and doesn't come back for 2 months cuz it's 'too far', then you better bet you're gonna see my ass on it. If it's already bolted and a project, even better, i'd of wanted bolts anyway.

by **The Mitt** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:10 pm

This is usually a huge debate but I think a season, if you climb one of my projects after a month oh well no big deal. Sometimes I feel I have some sort of ownership over the project simply because of the amount of time and money put in the route. But really there is not much I can do if someone does it before me anyway (except maybe firebomb their house j/k

. I would hope that I was given a reasonable amount of time for giving something back to the comunity. It would be pretty flowery for someone to start ticking all the projects in the area but do no developing themselves, and I'm sure nobody would.

Many people do not realize the amount of effort that goes into cleaning and bolting a route. Its alot of time away from actualy climbing.

The Mitt

by **Guest** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:19 pm

If I clean a project, I don't think I have the ownership over it. If somebody sends it before me, thats awsome ( good job keith ).

CB.

by **dcentral** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:33 pm

Might be a bit different if it was 30m of scrubbing and a day of bolting and it was someone other then keith.

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