bolts and hangers on new routes

[Adam]

so, a few of us were down at Greenlaw yesterday on a chilly overcast day that threatened rain constantly but never did. we got on Scurvy at the end of the day and i led up it and set a toprope. on a subsequent toprope session, the hanger on the third bolt popped off (still with a draw on it and the rope clipped, tugging at it), the nut and washer went flying, the quickdraw slid down the rope and popped Norfolk on the melon, and 6 all of our jaws dropped. i had clipped that hanger on my way up and it didn't budge. it must have loosened up from the rope movement after i passed by it and during the toproping.

basically this has taught me two things:

1 - when placing a bolt, one should return the next spring with a wrench to make sure all the bolts are still tight.
2 - when placing a bolt, don't bury it so far as to leave too few threads showing. it is good to have the bolt buried so to that the expansion sleeve is as deep as possible in the rock, but leave less than 4-5 threads showing and you don't have much room for error should a hanger loosen due to rock crumbling etc.

Burley and i discovered a few weeks ago that two hangers on Dihelio at Sunnyside are slightly loose as well. i will return to address those soon as well, but be forewarned if you are heading there (i think Burley is fixing the one on Scurvy today).

while you shouldn't be planning for hangers or nuts to come loose all the time, it is a harsh environment we live in (especially winter) and things break down so be careful. climb safe!

[chossmonkey]

Thats hard to believe the draw moving around would be able to unscrew a properly installed nut, even if it was really loose.

That thing must have only been attached to a couple threads!


Any bolt that doesn't have full contact with all the thread of the nut should be considered botched.





A word of warning to all the soon to be bolt tighteners out there. Don't over tighten the bolts either. That is worse than having a spinner. An over tightened bolt could be very close to breaking off and still look fine. Over tightening is the best way to chop old studs and it doesn't take as much force as you might think. For most bolts finger tighten it then give it an 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn, or finger tighten and tell someone who knows what they are doing that the bolt needs attention. Different types of bolts have different torques they are supposed to be tightened to.

[Adam]

all of the threads on the nut were used.

[martha]

Just to clarify what Choss is saying... a 1/8 or 1/4 inch turn with a wrench that has a 6" handle is an entirely different thing than a 1/8 or 1/4" turn with a wrench that has a 10" handle.

When in doubt... leave the bolts alone.

Bolting is serious business, so if you are new at it, or have never done it before and wish to add bolts to a project of yours, I highly recommend you asking one of the local 'experts' for some advice and maybe to come along with you for the day to teach you how to properly check for good placements for both anchor and route bolts, how to drill, hammer in the bolts and tighten the nuts. All things that if done wrong, can lead to unsafe bolts.

Cheers.

[chossmonkey]

Just to clarify what Choss is saying... a 1/8 or 1/4 inch turn with a wrench that has a 6" handle is an entirely different thing than a 1/8 or 1/4" turn with a wrench that has a 10" handle.

This is why men tell women not to touch their tools.

Errr, you know what I mean.


1/8 to 1/4 is the same no matter what length the wrench is. But yeah, what feels tight with a 6" handle will feel loose with a longer wrench and likely be over tightened. I only use a 10"-12" wrench to chop old bolts I'm replacing and it normally isn't that hard. Even new bolts aren't hard to break.



Why was I giggling the whole time I was writing that?

[martha]

Just to clarify what Choss is saying... a 1/8 or 1/4 inch turn with a wrench that has a 6" handle is an entirely different thing than a 1/8 or 1/4" turn with a wrench that has a 10" handle.

This is why men tell women not to touch their tools.

Errr, you know what I mean.


1/8 to 1/4 is the same no matter what length the wrench is. But yeah, what feels tight with a 6" handle will feel loose with a longer wrench and likely be over tightened. I only use a 10"-12" wrench to chop old bolts I'm replacing and it normally isn't that hard. Even new bolts aren't hard to break.



Why was I giggling the whole time I was writing that?

I'm quite sure that you know what I meant... I was talking about the amount of torque with the longer handle vs a shorter one..... It is easier to screw things up with a longer handled wrench.

And no worries Choss, I won't come near your tools... I don't like American Made goods for the most part.

[chossmonkey]

It is easier to screw things up with a longer handled wrench.

This is correct.

1/8 or 1/4 turn is the same whether a long wrench or a short one though. Arguably with a longer wrench someone would always go to 1/4 when an 1/8 would have been sufficient.

[Fred]

the old Hilti manufacturer recommended installation procedure for KBII was actually finger tight and 2 full revolutions of the nut beyond finger tight. 1/8 to 1/4 turn is definitely not enough and you can be sure to expect spinners.

Hilti has since moved to recommended torque method only.

[*Chris*]

For what it's worth I agree with Adam's assessment of the event. I was taking repeated falls (TR) on this bolt (it was acting as a directional) ... always swinging in the same direction. The action on the tensioned hanger simply unscrewed what was probably already loose from springtime freeze and thaw. We found the nut and it was in pristine shape. The stud and hanger were both installed correctly... just not adequately inspected while in use. The fault here is mine... and for it... i got a jaw full of a quickdraw... and a bit startled.

[martha]

It is easier to screw things up with a longer handled wrench.

This is correct.

1/8 or 1/4 turn is the same whether a long wrench or a short one though. Arguably with a longer wrench someone would always go to 1/4 when an 1/8 would have been sufficient.

Yes, I realize what you are saying. I wasn't explaining myself well....I was only saying that with a longer wrench you tighten the bolt MORE without realizing it because it feels looser as you have more leverage....

[Fred]

For what it's worth I agree with Adam's assessment of the event. I was taking repeated falls (TR) on this bolt (it was acting as a directional) ... always swinging in the same direction. The action on the tensioned hanger simply unscrewed what was probably already loose from springtime freeze and thaw. We found the nut and it was in pristine shape. The stud and hanger were both installed correctly... just not adequately inspected while in use. The fault here is mine... and for it... i got a jaw full of a quickdraw... and a bit startled.

Chris this happens all the time man when TR'ing and also repeated falls at a crux. It is no one's fault.

A torque wrench is a valuable purchase and there will be one in the club drill box soon

[chossmonkey]

the old Hilti manufacturer recommended installation procedure for KBII was actually finger tight and 2 full revolutions of the nut beyond finger tight. 1/8 to 1/4 turn is definitely not enough and you can be sure to expect spinners.

Hilti has since moved to recommended torque method only.

That was meant for retightening nuts on bolts that have come loose by Joe Blow who knows nothing about bolts.

[Fred]

Choss, are you saying the 1/8 to 1/4 was meant for re-tightening loose bolts? Then yes I might be inclined to agree since the wedge has already been engaged during installation. However, for new installation see the following. It takes a certain amount of initial turning to start engaging the wedge.

Here was the old KBII installation procedure. Note the 2 or 3 turn method.

http://www.hilti.ca/data/techlib/docs/i ... all-en.pdf

Here is the new KBIII installation procedure. See 4.3.5.4

http://www.hilti.ca/data/techlib/docs/p ... 20(224-242)r009.pdf

[Burley]

The hanger is back on Scurvy.

This route is very nice. Sustained hard (for me) climbing.

I tightened all of the nuts on the route (including the anchor). I only had access to a small 6" wrench so they should be given the once over with the new torque wrench as soon as the club picks it up.

The old hanger, nut and washer were used. Zero thread damage on the nut or bolt. Therefore, I'm in total agreement that the nut walked itself totally off the bolt once the hanger eroded the rock behind it and became loose.

Nice work by Matt Keys... 5th day climbing outside... Got the red point on Scury after one (clean) toprope go... then walked up and onsighted a 12b.

[martha]

Nice work by Matt Keys... 5th day climbing outside... Got the red point on Scury after one (clean) toprope go... then walked up and onsighted a 12b.

Well Burley, Matt is 12 years younger than all you old Farts out there climbing yesterday... so it isn't surprising he's such a rock star.

[Adam]

Nice work by Matt Keys... 5th day climbing outside... Got the red point on Scury after one (clean) toprope go... then walked up and onsighted a 12b.

way to go Matt! if only i had started as a young whipper snapper! lol

for those of you that don't climb at UNB, the new feature we built recently has generated some monsters... first it breaks your ankle causing and leaves you with nothing but fingerboard exercises. fast forward a few weeks into recovery and you mutate into something psick!

[Fred]

I don't think rock erosion is the cause. Probably just not tight enough combined with falls and TR'ing wiggled the hanger off the stud.

[Burley]

Agreed. Could be avoided with proper tightening using a torque wrench.

Lead bolted lines at your own risk. Give them a wiggle before you clip and continue on.

[Adam]

I don't think rock erosion is the cause. Probably just not tight enough combined with falls and TR'ing wiggled the hanger off the stud.

i wouldn't rule anything out i guess... but i find it hard to believe it wasn't tight enough. agreed, it would be good to have a torque wrench but i'm sure that nut was nice and tight upon installation. i would be more suspect of just a couple small chips of rock grinding down to give it that 1/2 mm of leeway to start movement (as opposed to freeze thaw cycle being involved).

[Fred]

I don't think rock erosion is the cause. Probably just not tight enough combined with falls and TR'ing wiggled the hanger off the stud.

i wouldn't rule anything out i guess... but i find it hard to believe it wasn't tight enough. agreed, it would be good to have a torque wrench but i'm sure that nut was nice and tight upon installation. i would be more suspect of just a couple small chips of rock grinding down to give it that 1/2 mm of leeway to start movement (as opposed to freeze thaw cycle being involved).

the grinding chipping is definitely possible and you see this alot at sandstone crags that use mechanical wedge bolts. But this is due to repeated loading of the climber either on falls or TR directional.

I don't think the freez thaw would have an impact.

One thing I like to do is give the area near the drilled hole a good smashing with the hammer head and also scrape it with the claw of the hammer prior to drilling. This helps remove some of those uneven crystals etc.

[Fred]

so I didn't get an answer if the 1/8 to 1/4 turn was meant for re-tightening only not new installation

[chossmonkey]

so I didn't get an answer if the 1/8 to 1/4 turn was meant for re-tightening only not new installation

I thought it was implied.

Yes, its is for retightening nuts that have come loose on bolts that were thought to be properly torqued at installation.

An 1/8 or 1/4 turn may not bring it all the way up to the proper torque, but its meant as more of a guideline for vigilante bolt tighteners that don't know anything about bolts other than the hanger is spinning, in an attempt to keep them from over tightening them.

[Fred]

10-4

sorry. I was lost in translation.

[chossmonkey]

10-4

sorry. I was lost in translation.

Aurait-il été mieux en français?

[STeveA]

I notice that at Rumney almost half the bolts have loose nuts. I saw the same thing at JTree this spring although not as prevalent. I am beginning to think the bolts are left loose on purpose. I thought it my be to allow the hangers to swing and align with the forces. It is too often to be accidental. Anyone have any ideas?

[Adam]

I notice that at Rumney almost half the bolts have loose nuts. I saw the same thing at JTree this spring although not as prevalent. I am beginning to think the bolts are left loose on purpose. I thought it my be to allow the hangers to swing and align with the forces. It is too often to be accidental. Anyone have any ideas?

i think leaving them loose on purpose is an invitation for disaster. i would guess that it's more the result of higher traffic loosening the nut from its installed position.

[chossmonkey]

I notice that at Rumney almost half the bolts have loose nuts. I saw the same thing at JTree this spring although not as prevalent. I am beginning to think the bolts are left loose on purpose. I thought it my be to allow the hangers to swing and align with the forces. It is too often to be accidental. Anyone have any ideas?

i think leaving them loose on purpose is an invitation for disaster. i would guess that it's more the result of higher traffic loosening the nut from its installed position.

For once I agree completely with Adam.

[Adam]

lol

[The Mitt]

This has been discussed here before. New Sport climbers need to realize that bolts often need to be retightened several times. Many bolts come with a rubber washer and if the bolts and nuts are installed with said washer (recommend not using the washer) over time it will disintegrate and cause a loose nut.

If you are climbing you should carry a wrench with you. Just a small crescent wrench will do. Spinners happen all the time and are part of the sport, no ones fault or responsibility.

S

[Shawn B]

Is there any chance that the rope that was placed through the directional somehow ran across the nut and that is what spun the nut off? I find it hard to believe that just the weighting and unweighting would unscrew a nut the number of turns it would take to have it come off...especially since it was just led that day and I'm assuming the nut was not only hanging on by one or two threads. It would take what...6 or 8 full rotations of that nut to have it come off.