strata factor direct

[granite_grrl]

Nice try though.

everything else being equal

i think you missed that part.

Almost every short fall I have taken/caught has been way harder than the long falls I have taken/caught. Seems the two aren't equal at all.

[granite_grrl]

Tom started this thread to say how wicked the route is, and we all agree, but most of us also agree that perceived risk is part of our calculations when choosing routes to get on.

Sorry Cara, earlier in this discussion it was mentioned that there was nothing to hit. Not knowing the route I had to take this information at face value.

In terms to a fall being dangerous just because its longer, both you and I know that's not true even it the route is dead vertical to a bit slabby. Last summer I got my first experiance on a tight catch on a traverse.....it sucked. I didn't fall far at all, but I ended up upside down.

There are times on vertical ground where there are things like ledges, etc, to hit. A belayer has to make the decision if they're going ot try to keep the fall short to keep them away from those things, or make it longer to sail the climber past them.

Belaying is a ticky buisness. Has to be taken case by case. But you can't say a longer fall is more dangerous just because it's longer.

[Burley]

Tom,

Don't be insulted... I'm just too weak to climb 15' without falling. Weak folk like me always complain that routes are runout... it gives us a good excuse not to get on them. If it isn't runout I usually blame it on a crap belay. I've got a load of excuses, but its never because I don't look cool...

I am a loser though... I actually have a list... written out on paper. I think I did it because I'm getting old and didn't want to forget what I wanted to do, but I can't remember.

There are other things that also contribute to my loserdom... This just reinforces it.

[*Chris*]

If any of you wankers want to call me a Nancy ...

Ptfff... whatever Martha... don't get your panties in a knot!

[Adam]

Nice try though.

everything else being equal

i think you missed that part.

Almost every short fall I have taken/caught has been way harder than the long falls I have taken/caught. Seems the two aren't equal at all.

that is due to your belayer giving you a tight belay, which in some cases is the best choice. but what part of bigger fall == more force == more potential for injury don't you guys understand? just b/c the catch is softer doesn't mean you were in less danger of injury had you hit something on the way down?

[*Chris*]

(I should point out that the above post is aimed squarely at Burley... who happens to also be named "Martha". Following my post, I realized how it might be misinterpreted. So... please take a deep breath and relax Cara; no need to go nuclear on me.)

[chossmonkey]

(I should point out that the above post is aimed squarely at Burley... who happens to also be named "Martha". Following my post, I realized how it might be misinterpreted. So... please take a deep breath and relax Cara; no need to go nuclear on me.)

I still giggled.

[chossmonkey]

but what part of bigger fall == more force == more potential for injury don't you guys understand? just b/c the catch is softer doesn't mean you were in less danger of injury had you hit something on the way down?

So higher forces= more stuff to hit?



In my opinion, if all things are equal and you are comparing forces you would compare FF rather than fall distance.

If the fall is clean it is clean. Slabs are only more dangerous because they tend to have more ledges and what not to hit. Just because you take a big fall on a slab doesn't mean you will get hurt. One of the biggest, if the not the biggest, fall I have taken was on less than vertical.




No fall is completely safe. A big fall doesn't always mean more danger. This whole discussion seems to revolve around psychological issues rather than physical. Granted I haven't climbed the route, but I will eagerly do so if someone will be kind enough to buy me a plane ticket and pick me up at the airport. Taken at face value the issue is the big fall you could possibly take. Not the big ledge you need to dodge on your way down.

From how it sounds it doesn't sound like there is a dangerous runout. It sounds like you clip a bolt pull a few hard moves then it gets easier the further you get from the bolt. It sounds like the kind of route that someone can feel proud of leading and feel like a hero after doing so with out really needing to hang their ass out on the line.



There is an old saying. "Bolts get me through times of no courage better than courage gets me through times of no bolts."

[Adam]

So higher forces= more stuff to hit?

not sure how you get that from my post b/c that's not what i said. i said if you fall further and you happen to hit something then you're going to be worse than hitting something on a short fall.


if all things are equal while fall distance is variable, then that means FF is equal... but if you want to compare FF vs fall distance, that's another topic. a higher FF fall is definitely more dangerous than a low FF fall, but only because more force on is placed the protection, not because of the potential increased forces squishing your soft tissue to the hard rock.

and yah if the fall is fully clean then the danger involved comes down to FF for sure. but this whole sub-thread started by me saying that a bigger fall is more dangerous, with everything else being equal. i'm not really sure why that is being argued.

but then again i haven't taken 40 footers so what do i know. i've only taken 25 footers lol

[Shawn B]

A belayer has to make the decision if they're going ot try to keep the fall short to keep them away from those things, or make it longer to sail the climber past them.

Hmmm...there's a nice smooth vertical piece of rock at the 20-30 foot mark. My climber is at 80 feet. I think I'll let my climber fly 50 feet so I'll give him a nice soft catch without the risk of hitting any ledge. Ummm...I think I'll wait for another belayer thanks.

[Shawn B]

If the fall is clean it is clean. Slabs are only more dangerous because they tend to have more ledges and what not to hit. Just because you take a big fall on a slab doesn't mean you will get hurt. One of the biggest, if the not the biggest, fall I have taken was on less than vertical.

All I gotta say is you are one lucky climber.




No fall is completely safe. A big fall doesn't always mean more danger.

If there are ledges or other things to hit it sure does mean more danger. A whole lot of other funny things can also happen from biners getting cross loaded, unclipped, getting mixed up in the rope, flipped upside down, etc. More air time = more time for something unexpected to happen.

This whole discussion seems to revolve around psychological issues rather than physical. Granted I haven't climbed the route, but I will eagerly do so if someone will be kind enough to buy me a plane ticket and pick me up at the airport. Taken at face value the issue is the big fall you could possibly take. Not the big ledge you need to dodge on your way down.
The climb is vertical. There are ledges. Exposure has nothing to do with my opinion. I do very well handling exposure. I don't enjoy pushing the already high potential for injury. I want to walk home at the end of my climbing day...not get an ambulance ride to the hospital where I will spend the next 3 months.

From how it sounds it doesn't sound like there is a dangerous runout. It sounds like you clip a bolt pull a few hard moves then it gets easier the further you get from the bolt.

You haven't done it. I have. Different people have different views. 8 or 9 people out of 10 who have done it would describe it as a dangerous runout. I'm sure there are plenty of people in this world who would solo this route. Or a 5.12 climber would probably have no problem with this route. But the average 5.10 leader would...and does...think it to be a route with above average risk involved.

It sounds like the kind of route that someone can feel proud of leading and feel like a hero after doing so with out really needing to hang their ass out on the line.

I personally think climbing should be a humbling sport, not an ego building sport. But then again...I'm just a nancy climber...just like Eric.

Again...falling...while a part of the sport...is not necessarily a good quality in a climber nor something to be proud of. Lots of people have gotten hurt falling. Some have taken huge falls and gotten lucky. Others haven't. Falling should not be sensationalized nor boasted about. It's like the idiots in TGR films shown skiing and triggering a huge slab avalanche and skiing away. They're the lucky ones and it is being sensationalized so the average person thinks they can trigger a slide and they'll survive...which is not the case. They should be forced at the end of these films to show a rescue team digging out a blue corpse from their snowy grave while their family and friends watch and cry. done rant.

It is called CLIMBING...and not FALLING.
Ok I'm done. My post quota has been surpassed for 2008.

[granite_grrl]

Okay, this is turning into a classic intardnet argument.

Nothing to hit = a big fall can* be safe
Something to hit = a big fall can* be dangerous.

Either there's something to hit or there isn't. What's so hard about that?





*note - a good vs a bad belay can make the difference between a safe or a dangerous fall in both these situations. There are no absolutes in climbing, and especially not in falling.

[martha]

No fall is completely safe. A big fall doesn't always mean more danger.

If there are ledges or other things to hit it sure does mean more danger. A whole lot of other funny things can also happen from biners getting cross loaded, unclipped, getting mixed up in the rope, flipped upside down, etc. More air time = more time for something unexpected to happen.

This is what I was saying.. again Shawn and I agree! (AMAZING!) more air time is more time for other things to go askew... I said this specifically in an above post.

Agreed... it is called 'climbing' not 'falling'.

I am a Nancy, and a Martha, right along with Shawn and Burley I guess. Not sure what else would ever put me in a category with those two!

[granite_grrl]

So higher forces= more stuff to hit?

not sure how you get that from my post b/c that's not what i said. i said if you fall further and you happen to hit something then you're going to be worse than hitting something on a short fall.

Ah, the ol' bait and swich. Here was your original argument was:

actually, everything else being equal, yes, a longer fall definitely does mean it is more dangerous simply due to the increased forces being applied to the protection. it obvioulsy doesn't mean it will result in injury, but it definitely means there is more risk involved.

How was anyone else to understand that you wanted to change the subject?....next time you should let the rest of us know.

[motanb]

but what part of bigger fall == more force == more potential for injury don't you guys understand? just b/c the catch is softer doesn't mean you were in less danger of injury had you hit something on the way down?

So higher forces= more stuff to hit?



In my opinion, if all things are equal and you are comparing forces you would compare FF rather than fall distance.

If the fall is clean it is clean. Slabs are only more dangerous because they tend to have more ledges and what not to hit. Just because you take a big fall on a slab doesn't mean you will get hurt. One of the biggest, if the not the biggest, fall I have taken was on less than vertical.




No fall is completely safe. A big fall doesn't always mean more danger. This whole discussion seems to revolve around psychological issues rather than physical. Granted I haven't climbed the route, but I will eagerly do so if someone will be kind enough to buy me a plane ticket and pick me up at the airport. Taken at face value the issue is the big fall you could possibly take. Not the big ledge you need to dodge on your way down.

From how it sounds it doesn't sound like there is a dangerous runout. It sounds like you clip a bolt pull a few hard moves then it gets easier the further you get from the bolt. It sounds like the kind of route that someone can feel proud of leading and feel like a hero after doing so with out really needing to hang their ass out on the line.



There is an old saying. "Bolts get me through times of no courage better than courage gets me through times of no bolts."

Exactly. And, also there is a bomber cam after the bolt too! This is a pyschological issue, naturally. For whatever reason there has been a conception of this section being tres run-out. It really isn't. If one does fall it'll probably end up 10-15ft at most (even considering all the slack in the system)....Why avoid a classic route due to a clean fall?
All the same i respect everyone's choices. I'm only conveying my beliefs of this "hidden gem".

[Burley]

Tom,

Adam and I are planning on giving it a go.... I should say Adam is going to lead it and I'm going to convince him its a good idea and that climbing it will somehow make him a better person... or possibly even more attractive to the ladies.

Even if we don't do it I'm going to rap it to look for that cam placement.... this might be done before we get on it. Probably won't be until next week... we'll let ya all know.

[martha]

Tom,

Adam and I are planning on giving it a go.... I should say Adam is going to lead it and I'm going to convince him its a good idea and that climbing it will somehow make him a better person... or possibly even more attractive to the ladies.

Even if we don't do it I'm going to rap it to look for that cam placement.... this might be done before we get on it. Probably won't be until next week... we'll let ya all know.

And the village sacrifices it's idiots.... errr... I mean it's 'Nancy's'... just teasing! Enjoy it boys!

[motanb]

Tom,

Adam and I are planning on giving it a go.... I should say Adam is going to lead it and I'm going to convince him its a good idea and that climbing it will somehow make him a better person... or possibly even more attractive to the ladies.

Even if we don't do it I'm going to rap it to look for that cam placement.... this might be done before we get on it. Probably won't be until next week... we'll let ya all know.

Awesome!! I can guarantee after you guys crank it (fall or no fall) you'll both walk away better looking dudes!!
Ever-since I 1st climbed it years ago, my luck with the ladies has only augmented... Go get 'er boys!!

[martha]

*note - a good vs a bad belay can make the difference between a safe or a dangerous fall in both these situations. There are no absolutes in climbing, and especially not in falling.

Okay, in my mind, a good belay is one in where you catch your falling leader. A bad belay is one in where you don't. or where you had out too much slack, or weren't paying attention etc.

Personally, when I see a leader falling or sense that it may happen, there are only split seconds to do anything before it is all over. All I really have time to do is lock off and hope for the best. I don't have time to debate in my head, "hmm... should I real out the slack to pass that ledge or should I run into the woods to take some up" Now, mind you, when I belay pretty much anyone (except most girls and John Bowles -hehe) I weigh so much less than them that the catch is always soft. Fred out-weighs me by at least 50lbs so when he falls, I lock off and get ready to ride.

*IF* I had time to debate what to do in a fall scenario, I would have done things differently when Fred fell a number of years ago and hit a ledge, but by the time I realized he was falling, he had already hit, leaving me time to lock off.

Man, that Gravity thing is Fast eh?

[Adam]

So higher forces= more stuff to hit?

not sure how you get that from my post b/c that's not what i said. i said if you fall further and you happen to hit something then you're going to be worse than hitting something on a short fall.

Ah, the ol' bait and swich. Here was your original argument was:

actually, everything else being equal, yes, a longer fall definitely does mean it is more dangerous simply due to the increased forces being applied to the protection. it obvioulsy doesn't mean it will result in injury, but it definitely means there is more risk involved.

How was anyone else to understand that you wanted to change the subject?....next time you should let the rest of us know.

bait and switch? huh??

i was pointing out that i didn't say that higher forces mean more stuff to hit as choss seemed to think. my only point in all this was that bigger falls inherently involve more danger... period.

why are you guys are trying to twist my words??

[Adam]

Awesome!! I can guarantee after you guys crank it (fall or no fall) you'll both walk away better looking dudes!!
Ever-since I 1st climbed it years ago, my luck with the ladies has only augmented... Go get 'er boys!!

haha... if ever there was a reason to man up... but was it your good luck or bad luck that was augmented? lol

[motanb]

lol.... (good) luck, that is

[chossmonkey]

i was pointing out that i didn't say that higher forces mean more stuff to hit as choss seemed to think. my only point in all this was that bigger falls inherently involve more danger... period.

why are you guys are trying to twist my words??

I guess you know what you meant and that is all that really matters.

[jeremy]

Man you guys like to argue..... strata factor is not that hard or poorly protected of a route. I went up it onsight like 4 years ago and i'm still alive. its one of welsford's best routes

jeremy

[chossmonkey]

Man you guys like to argue..... strata factor is not that hard or poorly protected of a route. I went up it onsight like 4 years ago and i'm still alive. its one of welsford's best routes

jeremy

BUSTED!!




Man, I wish I lived out there so I could climb all these routes and really talk smack.

[Adam]

Man you guys like to argue.....

no i don't.

[motanb]

Man you guys like to argue..... strata factor is not that hard or poorly protected of a route. I went up it onsight like 4 years ago and i'm still alive. its one of welsford's best routes

jeremy

Thats awesome Jeremy!! I was beginning to think that I was 'crazy' or something??! Now that someone other than moi has more or less affirmed my sentiments perhaps once and for all the myth that strata is wayyy scary will get the kai-bosh!!

[Adam]

jeremy doesn't count. he's stronger than the average bear lol

[STeveA]

I climbed the route many years ago and there was definitely no pro after the last bolt. It is too runout, and I thought so at the time, for my liking so I would not climb it again in the present condition. Maybe the rounded diagonal crack has been cleaned over the years to reveal more pro placements. It was certainly still 5.10 above the bolt and past the crack. Are we all talking about the same climb?

As another thought, the only time a first ascentionist should have exclusive claim on a climb is when they place pro from the ground up on lead. If the pro is placed on top rope then I think the climbing community as a whole has an equal say in the placement of the pro.

[Adam]

and the plot thickens!