Bug City

[jeremy benjamin]

My argument is based on the fact that the bolts were already there. I am arguing that bolt removal should be disscused in the community just as much as bolt placements are. Maybe a majority of Nova Scotia climbers would have agreed with Steve's decision to remove the bolts at Polly's if he had asked, but he didn't ask, and judging by the responses here if he had asked the majority of Nova Scotia climbers would not have wanted the bolts chopped. So using my argument you cannot "put a crap load of bolts at the top of boulder problems as long as people use them" without the community agreeing that bolts should be placed on that crap load of boulder problems.

As for your FA climbing ethics. Again I am arguing from the real life perspective of the fact that the bolts were already there. You and I agree that before placing bolts there should be discusion in the community, but the bolts were already there. The bolts at the top of the problems at Polly's were not stopping anyone from climbing those problems in the style that they wanted to climb them in. You could still climb them on gear, or boulder them if you wanted to. Plus with the anchors at the top people had a safe place to introduce kids, austrailians, and grandmothers to climbing. Who was loosing out? No one.

To your other question Mitt "What about the fact that it was the only place that had Top Rope anchors, that was their sole purpose." I think it argues more on the side of leaving the bolts where they were. It was The ONLY place that had top rope anchors as there only purpose. Now there is no place, and frig the kids and the austrailians and the grandmothers. Why? Cause Steve says so thats why.

[The Mitt]

Discussing putting bolts in does not happen in this community. Read my last post. There was no discussion there. Why are you not equally pissed at Sean T for putting up bolts on a perfectly protectable route at railway craig. Why not get pissed off for putting bolts over rustle never sleeps? why not get pissed off at Jon Graham for putting them in when we discussed it the last time? If your going to be pissed off spread the love to all of them equally because as I read your post they are all equally bad.

Anyway I had a great day climbing today and I'm done with the Conversation. We will have to agree to disagree. BTW anymore name calling and I will delete the post (thats directed at everyone).

[jeremy benjamin]

So Ben how about you pull your head out of your ass and get all of the facts straight before accuse people of crap and offer extreme consequences. If your worried about the void I would gladly fill it with my foot.

I think calling people names is pretty harsh, the only reason I don't delete your post for TOS violation is because I am in the debate and it could be interpreted as a bias. Sean that is pretty uncool.

Anyway I had a great day climbing today and I'm done with the Conversation. We will have to agree to disagree. BTW anymore name calling and I will delete the post (thats directed at everyone).

[chossmonkey]

There have been quite a few posts that have been walking the line as far as the TOS go. Since I'm pretty sure most of us in here are adults, is it to much to ask that you act like it?

[chossmonkey]

Why does the fact that the bolts were put there by a company play a role? The company does not exist anymore, but the bolts they placed at Polly's were well liked and well used by many members of the Nova Scotian climbing community. The only 'role' that was played by the fact that they were placed by a company for commercial reasons seems to be that you (Mitt) and Steve took great personal offense to it. The origin of the bolts was irrelevant they were there, they were used and they should not have been removed.

The bolts were placed for monetary gain on public land. They weren't necessary, they were a convenience. I'm sure bolted crack climbs would be real popular and see lots of use with the fast food mentality of modern climbing. Does that make them right?

Can I open an outdoor gym in NS? On public land?

Whether the company exists anymore or not seems somewhat irrelevant. Yeah, if they were going to be chopped it should have been years ago when they were first placed. It doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have been there to begin with.

The arguments that it is a preservation area and we should practice leave no trace is beautiful flowers. We absolutely should practice leave no trace practices, that is legit, not just at Polly's because it is a preservation area, but everywhere we climb, boulder, camp ect. BUT Those bolts REDUCED the impact on the area by climbers who wanted to set up top ropes. Now climbers who want to set top ropes at Polly's have to trample around off of the path destroying the vegetation at the top setting up and removing anchors every time. How is that closer to leaving no trace then using the bolts that were already there? A second reason the leave no trace argument is beautiful flowers is that 8 bolt scars look no better than 8 bolts so you have improved nothing. The damage (if you consider it to be so, and as has been stated that is another argument) was done. Removing the bolts did nothing to improve it. But hey at least you showed Virtigo who is the boss of where bolts can go in Nova Scotia, you really stuck it to the man there.

How does increasing the number of users to an area reduce impact? Its true, the bolts themselves cause very little impact. But the throngs of people bolts seem to magnetically attract do cause impacts.

If bolts are properly chopped and patched, unless you know where they were before they were chopped you won't know where they were after they were chopped. If the holes weren't patched they can and should be now. If the chopper left big nasty scars on the rock by doing a lousy job of chopping by all means tar and feather them. Further scaring the rock on their part is inexcusable.

The removal of the bolts (in my opinion) was a hugely selfish, absolutely unwarranted action. Really all it amounts to is vandalism. How would you feel Steve if someone decided that he didn't like bolts that you regularly use for a collection of his own reasons and took it upon himself to go out and chop them? You owe the climbing community an apology for stealing one of our resources, and I hope you can take the time to read the posts on here and consider the fact that you had no right to chop those bolts.

How did he steal a resource? The routes are still there. They can still be TRed.

That argument in this case holds no water.

[Adam]

The bolts were placed for monetary gain on public land. They weren't necessary, they were a convenience. I'm sure bolted crack climbs would be real popular and see lots of use with the fast food mentality of modern climbing. Does that make them right?

choss, you're making some poor comparisons there. bolting a crack is NOT the same thing as putting a toprope anchor on a wall that sees a lot of traffic and the only anchor gear is many feet back from the edge. find some perspective.

bolting an anchor does not ALWAYS reduce impact, no. but it sounds like this area is a candidate for just that. tramping around in brush at the top of a cliff to set up an anchor is impact. granted we climbers tend to impact the bottom of cliffs more than the top, but maybe the impact at the bottom is a trade off for less impact at the top if the anchors were there. i can't see 'throngs of people' going to toprope a couple 20' 5.6s... but who knows. it sounds like it gets regular use, and that will be the case whether or not the anchors are there.

[chossmonkey]

bolting a crack is NOT the same thing as putting a toprope anchor on a wall that sees a lot of traffic and the only anchor gear is many feet back from the edge.

How is it different?

If there is a crack to place gear there is a crack to place gear. So what if you need to bring an extra 100' of webbing to set up and anchor. Its top roping! You are supposed to expect to have to set up and anchor and bring miles of webbing to do so.

It is even worse to add bolts somewhere that doesn't need them when you can sit and take your time to place said gear and not have to worry about pumping out or hitting the ground.



Why does it matter if the wall sees a lot of traffic? If it doesn't see a lot of traffic then it would be okay for it not to have bolts?

[Adam]

How is it different?

If there is a crack to place gear there is a crack to place gear. So what if you need to bring an extra 100' of webbing to set up and anchor. Its top roping! You are supposed to expect to have to set up and anchor and bring miles of webbing to do so.

are you serious?

bolting a protectable crack is unnecessary and does nothing for erosion remediation. putting in top rope anchors where the only other option is to damage vegetation and carry around ungawdly amounts of webbing or cord is a step that can be taken to avoid erosion.

bolted anchors have their place. if you follow your line of reasoning there really shouldn't be ANY bolts ANYWHERE... no more sport routes, just top roping on natural anchors...

it's a good thing you guys don't live around welsford b/c there are dozens of anchors that would end up getting chopped even though they were put there to avoid the trees from being killed over time and/or due to convenience.

[Nate]

HAHAHAHA neither of you guys even lives here!? That is gold! How do you know we're not arguing about some rubbish choss heap? Have you guys been to Polly's Cove?

NS

[chossmonkey]

How is it different?

If there is a crack to place gear there is a crack to place gear. So what if you need to bring an extra 100' of webbing to set up and anchor. Its top roping! You are supposed to expect to have to set up and anchor and bring miles of webbing to do so.

are you serious?

bolting a protectable crack is unnecessary and does nothing for erosion remediation. putting in top rope anchors where the only other option is to damage vegetation and carry around ungawdly amounts of webbing or cord is a step that can be taken to avoid erosion.

bolted anchors have their place. if you follow your line of reasoning there really shouldn't be ANY bolts ANYWHERE... no more sport routes, just top roping on natural anchors...

it's a good thing you guys don't live around welsford b/c there are dozens of anchors that would end up getting chopped even though they were put there to avoid the trees from being killed over time and/or due to convenience.

Are you serious?

[chossmonkey]

HAHAHAHA neither of you guys even lives here!? That is gold! How do you know we're not arguing about some rubbish choss heap? Have you guys been to Polly's Cove?

NS

I'm just playing devils advocate

My in-laws live about 15 min from Polly's but I've never climbed there. I have bushwhacked through enough of the scrub around there getting to other places to climb that I know if there is much vegetation to worry about you aren't going to be seeing many cracks to excavate.

Sure there might be some moss and other junk in the cracks that needs to be cleaned out. But once the placements are cleaned, since it is so popular, they should stay clean. Even if you have to cross some scrub to get to the crack or cracks it only takes one trail.

I guess I've TRed way more than my share on cliffs similarly short that I don't have much sympathy.

[Zamboni]

Ok, lets say the bolts were still there and we jumped ahead 25 - 50 years, or how ever long it takes till the bolts are past their life time. We would all agree to remove them at that time. Would we all agree to drill new holes and replace them? I would hope the majority would say no! So who cares if they were removed now vs later. This isn't the only place in NS to "Top Rope". There are other places that are easier to get to, and more concentrated. I'm satisfied with them being removed. I would not have done it myself, my "boys" aren't big enough. If we've learned anything its that slapping bolts anywhere isn't cool. Those bolts set a president, and any other in the same context could end up in the same boat. The rocks lifetime is much greater than you and I. I feel sorry for all the people who will climb any bolted rout 200 years from now. They wont be as clean as they were in our life time.

My 2 cents
Conan.

[kate]

I'm so sad for all of you...instead of wasting my time on this board, I am busy planning my days of bouldering in Font and sport climbing in the Alps this Summer.

hmmm...I wonder if these "to bolt or not to bolt" or "to chop or not to chop" debates ever existed in France...considering the thousands of bolts and the throngs of happy climbers (not to mention super duper hardmen and women) that I have encountered there, I'm going to have to say that surely they did exist, but ultimately they just sucked it up and moved on. Peter, I'm sure you can attest to the fact that there are still countless incredible trad areas in that small country, non? (despite the fact that the rock is so full of metal)

ps. hey princess, didn't you say that there were bolted anchors at the top of all the crack lines you climbed at Indian Creek? that's crazy!!

[RockMasterFlash]

I have been reading this thread for the last couple days and i'm embarassed to say that i am kinda hooked. I generally try at stay out of this kinda thing for a couple reasons but i just cant do it anymore. I know my opinion is biased, i am defiantly pro bolt!! If someone wants to put a bolt anchor at the top of John Doe on dover island frig it get it done. Anywhere for that matter. If you look at how fast people progress in other areas around the world, for example 6 months of climbing and being able to warming up on 5.10 or V6 compared to here in nova scotia where it takes alot longer for a new climber to get to that level. I think the reason for this is because the availability of easy access to a large range of different types of climbing is open to everyone, not just the hard man looking to set a name for himself which takes place quite often here in nova scotia. Or maybe climbers here in Nova Scotia just don't want other climbers to progress. Me personally i would rather set a route or what have you, which the whole climbing community no matter how hard you climb, could get on and learn from and improve their climbing skills without worry of grounding out or trying to set sketchy gear for a top rope. Granted learning to place proper gear is part of learning how to climb but only if you have some one their to teach you...
And if you have a person who can place gear competently why toprope a tiny 20 ft boulder problem.
Bottom line, these bolts were used by the climbing community, not just to generate profit for Vertigo or Dal. Therefore the discission to chop the bolts was one which affected the entire climbing community. I personaly agree that chopping the bolts is worse then placing the bolts. At least a placed bolt is usable. And lets face the facts if we are so worried about no impact to the enviroment we really need to stop worrying about the small pieces of metal placed in some rock and stop burning fossil fuels. AKA the vehicle you drive to work in every day. Or the garbage that you place at the curb to go to the land fill.
Do you really need to start asking Steve and Sean .K. whats right or whats wrong, should we ask them what thier rules are for placing gear, for hammering pitons, for placing bolts. Should we live be Steve's LAW of ettiquite (even though he hasn't been here as long as; Todd .F, Sean .T, Sean Cassidy, just to name a few). I think we need to take in to account the whole climbing community, hence Climb Nova Scotia. If someone wants to place bolts then they should have to contact CNS ask for permission, and in turn CNS should contact the land owners, or the government, or the tourist bureau, or what ever and make sure its ok. On top of that CNS should poll the climbing community and find out what the majority thinks about the placing of, or the chopping of bolts. After the poll if you have a problem well too bad you should have voiced your opinion while you had a chance.

Just my two cents...

[ben smith]

uh oh heres the same nice person who started this who pain in the ass and this time he's all likkkerered up! Yee HAW!!

Choss monkey, how do you even know that there are gear placements there? Adequate gear for Steve is two mankey RPs and a possible number 5 camelot, not prime gear for anyone one who wants to toprope a 20 ft 5.6 que no?
Basically if you haven't seen the gear I'd avoid commenting on how bomber it is and how any mindless drone could place a bomber toprope there.

Conan, considering how much use those anchors have seen I'd think the community would rebolt them, remember there is "gear" and trees on top of eagles nest but who rebolted that?

Kelly, what does it matter who states an argument if that argument holds water (re: sean T), your threats to lock or moderate the thread are proof of your poor rhetorical skill and general determination of making an asinine spectacle of yourself at every possible opportunity.

PEACE SUCKA's and ridiculous silly sallys

[chossmonkey]

Choss monkey, how do you even know that there are gear placements there? Adequate gear for Steve is two mankey RPs and a possible number 5 camelot, not prime gear for anyone one who wants to toprope a 20 ft 5.6 que no?
Basically if you haven't seen the gear I'd avoid commenting on how bomber it is and how any mindless drone could place a bomber toprope there.

Your big argument starting out this whole thing is you needed to haul out 40' of webbing to set up a 20' TR. It wasn't that you had to set it up on a couple of RP's.


I never said it was bomber. I said if there is gear it shouldn't be bolted.

I never said a mindless drone could place a bomber TR there. You insinuated mindless drones can't anymore.



Buckets with big holes don't hold water.

Sorry

[Adam]

HAHAHAHA neither of you guys even lives here!? That is gold! How do you know we're not arguing about some rubbish choss heap? Have you guys been to Polly's Cove?

NS

haha no, i just think there're some whacked opinions on here lmao, but i guess that shouldn't surprise me!

[pulldown]

As i continue to read this thread i find all kinds of memories about Polly's cove rushing back. I'm gonna try not to date myself here but i do have a few more stories from my many years of climbing there. Everyone has the right to give their opinion (I don't think Steve has any way of removing those from the climbing community) I also encourage Mitt to use caution in moderating this thread. Certainly this will not be the last conversation about this subject. It would be tragic if someone later referenced a thread that was edited and presented it as fact or truth.

The first time i ever went climbing at Polly's i was told that it was a top rope area. I'm sure there were probably people who bouldered some of that stuff but the group i met when i first started climbing thought of it as a top rope area. My climbing partner and i took what gear we had and went out. I can't remember exactly all the climbs we set up but i am certain at that time we did not have the gear or experience to set up an anchor on the easiest wall (you know the one).

A year or two later i was fortunate to meet a great group of strong, confident and fun climbers. I was invited along for a day of bouldering with them at Herring Cove. What they climbed that day blew my mind! That day changed how i viewed climbing, the possibilities were endless. That group had also pushed the limits at Polly's Cove and bouldered many of those climbs i had done on top rope. Jonathan Graham was part of that group. He would later form a company (Vertigo) to introduce people to climbing in a safe outdoor environment. I'm pretty sure he never mad a fortune at it but did influence many new climbers in a positive way.

I'm not sure if this has any relevance on this discussion, but i though it was important that everyone understand the history of the area as best as i can recall. It's unfortunate that we don't have a more comprehensive document that tracks the history of climbing here. It goes back a long way, long before anyone on this message board (including myself) ever started climbing here.

Todd

[tracstarr]

So there's been a bit of mention about CNS being involved. Probably a worthwhile thing to consider. Problem is CNS needs people to help out with these things. To help the climbing community as a whole. But I don't see anyone out there stepping up to try and make things better. An organization can have a lot more pull than an individual. Everyone who gives a $hit should step up and play a role with CNS. THe AGM is tonight. 1041 Wellington St. , 6pm. Show your faces. Make a difference. It matters. From bolting to impact to clean ups, whatever it is.

[martha]

FYI to everyone...

Mitt is NOT moderating this thread due to conflict of interest. It is coming from the rest of the team.

Cheers.

Cara

[pulldown]

Thanks for clarifying Cara. Is there a way to denote if a comment has been moderated? It is nice to know if a post had more to it but had been edited.

Thanks

Todd

[chameleon]

Todd, the veteran - that's pretty funny

[pulldown]

Very funny. Soon people will refer to me as old man instead of you.

Chameleon, you have been here waaaaayyyyyy longer than anyone. You must have a tale or two about Polly's.

[chossmonkey]

Thanks for clarifying Cara. Is there a way to denote if a comment has been moderated? It is nice to know if a post had more to it but had been edited.

Thanks

Todd

Normally there is a big fat "(Content Moderated)" where some thing has been snipped out.

The only thing that has been edited was SeanT's post and the only thing taken out of there was nonconstructive name calling that we saw as more of a personal attack. The word censor has changed a few four lettered words and variations of them out as well, and it is a site wide thing.

[chameleon]

Let's see, if memory serves......during the first ice age (or was it the second), after a good day of hunting woolly mammoths, me and the boys used to romp up those problems at Polly's just to keep warm. After the big melt, these young whipper snappers start coming along and start puttin' bits of mammoth hide at the base of those problems to keep their little booties clean before they climbed. That was the beginning of the end.
-------------
It's funny how perspectives change over the years.
I won't pretend to have the wealth of experience claimed by others here but I'll throw a few perspectives at you.

I probably moved here a few years before you started climbing Todd (?). As I knew it, Polly's cove was (still is) a bouldering area. Most (if not all of those lines) had been bouldered by the likes of Steve Brewis, Colin Matthews, Chris Chetcuti etc... No doubt Sean Willett, Heather Reynolds, and the generation before them (Dan Price, Tony Veling) etc. were active in the area. I would guess they bouldered but who knows maybe they risked it all and set up marginal topropes

One line - can't remember what you call it now (sort of a V4/5 highball -- a think you tweaked an ankle there todd?) used to have a different name -- somethin' like East Coast Pimp...can't remember. I do remember when the boyz were workin' that one..quite exciting...they used to carry their bed mattresses (like the foam camping style ones) on their heads ...tromping out there. Pretty funny...specially when they got soaked.

Another funny perspective that's kind of relevant considering the topic, the players, and tonights CNS meeting.............I recall sitting in on a CNS AGM a number of years ago (this was when it was run almost exclusively by non-climbers....very annoying) and there was a big uproar from this feisty posse in the crowd (the infamous hoodlums: Todd F and Sean K, fresh into their first year of climbing) who were goin' off about how evil bolts are etc., etc.,.how bolts should be chopped, bla, bla, bla. I can't remember the details. Anyways, sounds like some of those perspectives have changed. Will they change again? Probably.

[ben smith]

Chossmonkey:

Perhaps the webbing thing was not the best argument for me to make regarding the merits of chopping those bolts, bringing in a little extra webbing is in the long run not a big deal.

However, I'm not the one commenting on the merits of chopping bolts WHEN I HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THE CLIMBING AREA OR THE POTENTIAL GEAR PLACEMENTS, and currently reside two provinces to the west. Again for all you know that gear could be trash or unusually wide,e.g pro for number 4 camelots and up only (See Eager's and Peter's posts) so if I were you I'd think twice before saying how much chopping those bolts is justified.

Chameleon: I've heard Heather talk about toproping those lines in Polly's a long time ago '95 maybe? I'd bet her and Sean W. probably had the first ascents on those lines. I wonder if she would have any problem with the bolted anchors?

[pulldown]

Yep, i broke my ankle on that thing.

Sean C. is right i was at that meeting, but don't remember too much of the details either.I do know that i was young, inexperienced and an impressionable climber. The outcome of that meeting consumed a great deal of my free time. And the result was that a committee was formed, the topic of buying a drill was debated for what seemed like years, and a drill was purchased by CNS. Sean C and i were on the side of buying a drill and a few of the board members at the time were on the side of not buying a drill. The whole reason for the debate at the time was because there were climbers outside the organization that felt things were not being done in the best interest of the climbing community. They got involved. This event really shook things up at CNS and made some positive changes.

The key to those positive changes was the thoughtfulness of the community on both sides of the debate. Most importantly it was debated. I guess i'm not really bothered by the bolts being removed, it's the manner it was done. CNS should have taken on this task after poling the community to make sure it was what was best for the community as a whole. If they had i'm sure there would not be the personal attacks and threats that have resulted.

Todd

[The Mitt]

I said I was not going to add anymore on this subject however. Just one point, My comment to Ben was not meant to be a threat but a figure of speech. I'm surprised you took it as that Todd.

[chossmonkey]

Again for all you know that gear could be trash or unusually wide,e.g pro for number 4 camelots and up only (See Eager's and Peter's posts) so if I were you I'd think twice before saying how much chopping those bolts is justified.

I didn't say the bolts should have been chopped. I did say "the bolts weren't necessary, they were a convenience and they shouldn't have been there to begin with." I also said "IF they were going to be chopped it should have been years ago when they were first placed."


You're right, I have never been there and don't know what they gear is like. I do however know it was TRed before the bolts and will be TRed in the future without them.

I wouldn't consider a #4 overly wide, but even if it is, does that mean that all big cracks need to be bolted so people who don't want to buy big cams can climb them? For that matter, any crack that needs cams since they are so expensive? Since most n00bs can't place nuts very well why not just bolt all the cracks just to keep things fair?

Like I said before, I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I hate to see climbing headed down the road of being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

[pulldown]

Hey Mitt

The "threats" comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just the general feeling of i'm left with from many of the comments.

Todd