Bug City

[martha]

If it were my island I'd bolt John Doe and call it 5.11b. I've climbed shorter sport climbs!

But that is cause I am a pansy and don't like High Balls.

This is a serious issue that should be addressed. Bolting in protected areas should be off limits, however, other areas should have some 'guidelines' for development. Or at least and understood 'local ethic' that is respected by everyone.

[joysquirts]

shaboy young ben, good points! i dont think you were off hand with anything you said. but this issue is getting sticky, and will not be solved.
toddles very good point, i have been looking for good places to take my friends to share my world with them!

in my opinion chopping bolts is as bad as putting them in.
yea there was bolts, they were bought they were installed and they were used, how does chopping them make it any better? TWO WRONGS DOES NOT MAKE A WRIGHT

so when will the vigilante enter bug city to save the ethical battle. restore the purity of trad climbing in nova scotia!

are you serious? really?

[The Mitt]

So are you more mad about them going in or coming out? Because I get the impression your more upset about them coming out, I could be wrong.

I mean if they didn't go in, in the first place no-one would have had the chance to take them out. So what if I want to start guiding at sorrows and put top-rope anchors on every route at sorrows? Would it be OK for someone to remove them (after I get swarmed by the community:)?

Ben was not off hand with what he said? like accusing me of something I didn't do? Like saying he would remove the bolts from a climb that I and others developed (nothing even close to this issue).

Funny this debate has drawn much more heated debate about the removing of bolts that absolutely should not have been placed than the easy crackline at railway craig that was bolted.

The routes at bug city are ,not protectable (or very desperate), the FA party put them in, and they are sport routes put up by climbers for climbers.

Polly's were put up for the sake of business, not by the FA party, they are not sport routes, and they have protection. Its not the same.

M

[nsagar]

haha...this is good stuff!! Sure wish we climbed as much as we talked smack!
I love Nova Scotia!!!

[The Mitt]

Yeah true enough, I just wanna get back out to bug city and have some fun.

S

[ben smith]

Steve,

The only bolts up there were put in by Vertigo (4 or 5 years ago?), none were added by the rock court. I don't work for the Rock Court, neither does Nick who is in the Bahamas or travelling, not in N.S. Your email to him didn't make it too far, which explains why I though the chopping had been done in a shirking manner (you certainly didn't advertise your intentions). Preserving the rock seems ring a little hollow coming from someone who has put up hammered lines on "high quality coastal granite popular with hikers" (High Head) and hammered lines on Gulliver's head.

I don't believe I directly accused you of any thing Sean, my only words to you being "Stupid move Sean in my opinion" referring to the removal of the bolts; which you defended. I believed you had chopped them, I was wrong and I apologize but I didn't openly accuse you of anything. You want to be the Big Man and kick my ass tell me when you're available, I've got an office at dal about 5 minutes from Steve's if you both want a turn and I'm around pretty regularly (233-2459). I also mentioned chopping deep throat, you defended chopping these bolts, I proposed chopping the rest of the bolts on trad leadable routes. Sure its a little more work to climb deep throat on gear, you have to be a bit more solid and is nice to have the bolts there for convenience but frig it, chop, chop (frig it chop all the lines under 5.10 its fine with me, those are only "convenience bolts" anyway right?)

There are many bolted lines in N.S protected areas (ALL of Sorrows end) with possible natural anchors which only require a bit on ingenuity to construct. Seems to me people are pissed off that someone is making a profit (more like a pittance) teaching kids to climb and thats why the bolts were chopped. This has nothing to do with preserving nature, more like a gut reaction to commercialism. Well, if I was being paid to teach people to climb I wouldn't be that crazy about trusting the flowery gear on top of Polly's, I'm assuming thats why Vertigo put those bolted anchors in, not because they were to lazy to pack in some extra webbing and too lazy to build an anchor.

The bolts were there for years without anyone getting a stick up their asses, they were used to introduce hordes of climbers to outdoor climbing (including Nate) the gear up there is flowery and 10-20 ft back. There are both shorter bolted lines and lines with bolted anchors that have a closer proximity to natural gear (Cape Clear ring any bells regarding bolts near natural pro?). In the end every line is "convenience bolted" since the lines are leadable in control if you're strong enough and there is always gear some where (200-300 ft back) for an anchor.

Nick- I do climb as much as I talk smack, a guy has to have a rest day activity...

PS Mittens, next time you start a thread trolling for pissed off ethics responses try my strategy as opposed to your first post...

[tracstarr]

I'm selling tickets to the fight... only $8.98!

[chameleon]

Hey Ben,

Nice post. But how do we know it’s really you? It seemed entirely too civil – not even one f-bomb?!!

As tired and trying as these “debates” are, I think they are important issues to discuss. Apart from stylistic differences, bolting and chopping can potentially have a very negative effect on access for all of us.

Could you clarify a few points for the discussion?

I’m guessing that you assumed that since the community didn’t seem to have a problem with the first 2 bolts, then you felt it was okay to add some more? Is that true? Makes a certain amount of sense: if the first 2 weren’t ripped out, why would the next 6?

Did you add bolts above boulder problems or were they installed above more “cliff-like” areas that may or may not have been previously soloed? I posted a question earlier wondering how people felt about bolting on Dover (at the top of Exciter, for example). Maybe this analogy isn’t even close - but on the surface it sounds fairly similar. Maybe it’s more akin to the bolted anchors that exist on the top of the Main Cliff at Dover Island?

Finally, your comment about bolts currently existing in other “protected” areas is a good one - they certainly do exist. Would you agree that if climbers are bolting in these areas that we should make some efforts to be discrete about it? It seems to me that there is a big difference between bolting along a well-travelled public trail (e.g., Pollys, Railway Crag/Skull Rock) versus bolting next to an untrammeled swamp (Bug City). The main issues that come to mind would be vandalism and possible access problems.

Just a few thoughts…

- Sean C. (not to be confused with other Seans I hope!.....)

[ben smith]

oh F-bombs would be a poppin' if this thing didn't turn them into frig automatically

your points:
Rock Court staff DID NOT add any new bolts to Polly's cove to my knowledge, the bolts that were there had been there since Vertigo placed them. However we did use the hell out of those bolts when I worked there (probably had more people on those anchors than any other ones in halifax, even if you count kids as 1/2 a person each).

The bolted anchors were on top of the cliff band next to johnnys ravaged finger tips (or whatever that line is called). The lines had been previously soloed (but see the bolts on Dover on top of the boulder problems near the campsite, which have been climbed ropeless, except for your 5.11 line).

I have the feeling that in N.S with so much outdoor resource, the total meter square or so that could hold every bolt in the province goes unnoticed. Bolting is a problem in big parks like Yosemite because of the number of bolts (and other fixed shmank) around and the fact that Yosemite is so crowded that people are just looking for something to complain about in other user groups.

In N.S where you can go a season without running into anyone else outside this is not such a problem in my opinion. Seems stupid to complain about some metal when the trail that people walk in on is such an eroding P.O.S. I want to ban hikers and dogwalkers, that damage is all their fault, if it was only the climbers that trail would be in much better shape....

[chameleon]

If we ban dog-walkers, where will Steve take his pit-bull?

[Eager]

I was a guide years back and used those bolts for groups numerous times. I agree that the natural pro is flowery, and realistically wandering around on the tops of the cliffs sifting through vegetation looking for placements will in time cause more damage than a few bolts. I really think Climb Nova Scotia should take action and inform the climbing community more on the different designations of types of land and the impact that we are allowed to have in them. Ie Wilderness Areas have different rules than Preservation areas. The fact is climbers need to take a look in the mirror and say are we really as low impact, earth friendly as we claim to be or is that just Prana and the industry spewing flowers at use so they can make money off of us. I whitewater kayak as well and I know for a fact that barring driving to the river I have far less impact then when I go climbing. Polly's has always been a bouldering area to most and seeing that it is a high traffic preservation area I was always a bit leary about the ethical implicationsn of those bolts. I personally would not have installed them, but if they were there then my intent would be to use them. Personally I don't feel that either act was right, but if Polly's will be used for toprope setups than the bolts should have stayed in my opinion. Crappy situation if you ask me.

[jeremy benjamin]

I have a question as the naive boulderer I have already admitted to being. If bolts are replaced at a spot where they were removed from do they go into the same hole as the previously removed bolts or would new holes have to be drilled to place the new bolts?

And I have a question probably best answered by CNS board members of the present and past Since they represtent the Nova Scotia climbing community to the general public. Has any one ever complained about the bolts at Polly's cove or any other Bolts in Nova Scotia?

Ignoring the climbing ethics that fuel this fire, concerning climbing style and blah blah whatever. We are talking about very small pieces of metal at the top of a very large wall of granite. The metal pretty much blends in with the granite. I would guess that most hikers and dog walkers do not even notice the bolts and if they do notice them I would further guess that they do not know what they are for, and probably do not feel that they impinge upon they're enjoyment of Polly's cove. Maybe I am wrong though, so how many Nova Scotians have complained besides The Mitt and Stevo?

[Fred]

I have a question as the naive boulderer I have already admitted to being. If bolts are replaced at a spot where they were removed from do they go into the same hole as the previously removed bolts or would new holes have to be drilled to place the new bolts?

I'm steering clear of this discussion like its poison ivy but I can answer this technical question.

Typically bolts are not removable. They use an expansion anchor from the inside out which can not be pulled out of the hole. The only option is to chop it and drill a new hole to place a new bolt. Having said that, there are some expansion bolt anchor systems out there that can be removed and replaced with new hardware in the same hole but these are expensive and seldom used in these parts. Also, I have heard of people drilling out the old stud once chopped but this is not advisable and very sketchy in my professional opinion as I'm sure most anchor manufacturers would agree.

hope this helps. Don't shoot the technical advisor. hehe

[chameleon]

TWO WRONGS DOES NOT MAKE A WRIGHT

errrrrrr...did you mean:
"THREE LEFTS MAKE A RIGHT"?

[waterat]

This is great stuff... keep it up lads ...can you post the Battle @ Dal on YouTube as well ?
I don't know Mr Smith, but I'm putting ten bucks on Stevo since all them Geordie bas****s fight dirtier than a dirty thing...any rematches, give me a call troops, I'm always up for sloppy seconds he he he....

[Nate]

As long as I've been president there haven't been any complaints about bolts on the rock to my knowledge.

CNS has begun to look into what the property status is of each climbing area. Dover Island incidently is owned mostly by Her Majesty the Queen. I suppose in the future we might be able to post all that information publicly but things move slowly with a small board. Anyone interested in this topic specifically is welcome to pitch in and speed up the research process.

I guess another angle on this debate might be who actually used the bolts regularly and what say they got in their destiny. We might say from a third person perspective that skiing is a rotten persuit that must be extinguished because of trees you have to clear to make trails but, as a skier you value the hill and its trails completely. I used the bolts regularly and really valued them. Is it then ok for a third party to come and remove them?

All that said, the bolt removal was done very well in it's own right. I had to look around for a fair bit of time before I could find the scars.

More food for thought,
Nate

[peter]

There are lots of gear placements for top roping, just about 10 feet back. S

I have used those when top-roping my kids. They were useful. I can now place removable gear, but not everyone has a range of such gear.

Peter

[ben smith]

I think probably what set me off about this whole thing was exactly what Nathan's point was, i.e people who are rarely out climbing at Polly's cove ( i think, maybe I'm wrong and there are Stoner's trip heading out to P.C often to experience the heady rush of a 20 ft 5.6) taking an action that inconvenienced a larger number of people (who climb, or introduce people to climbng in P.C more often). Seemed to me to be analogous to a climber on a road trip chopping bolts at a local's crag because they thought they were unethical.

[The Mitt]

I have been to polly's cove about 50 times in the past year. 20 of them climbing the rest just hiking. Every time I have walked by them (I don't always go that way) I noticed them and thought that they were "out of place". It bothered me that they were put in, it bothered me more as to why they were installed. But over all I was not nor have I ever been over the top freaked out about them. When I brought it up I was not super pissed about it. I did consider removing them but it did not seam like it was worth my time. So I couldn't have been that upset. I am glad that they are gone.

M

[ben smith]

another thought:
would the bolts have been chopped if a climber without commercial connections placed them?

The company which placed the bolts no longer is operating in N.S (to the best of my knowledge). The rock court climbing camps were just using bolts which had been previously placed by another climber, is that any more ethical than if we had placed the bolts ourselves? The damage to the rock is the same no matter who places the bolts, no?

[The Mitt]

Is there another example of Bolts put in for Top Roping? Would it be OK for me to put some top rope anchors on Sorrows? This isn't even a bolting debate it's a top rope anchor debate.

[ben smith]

sorrows end: the bolted anchors on top of All the rage, Knockdown street, chameleon, bigfoot motel, doin' the rustle. All are used as top rope anchors.
What about the bolted anchors on top of Sea with Joy which were added post FA?

[The Mitt]

I didn't know that sea with Joy had Bolted anchors. All the rage does and I thought they were added with permission of the FA. The others were installed for the purposes of being anchors for a sport climb not for the sole purpose of top roping. Once again not the same. And were not added after the FA. And once again they were not added for commercial reasons (which certainly plays a role).

So if I were to goto Dover and put up like 30 Top rope anchors at Dover that would be OK? What if I promise to take some kids out climbing that better?

[seanT]

Gee a guy goes away for a few days and look what happens.
1.We are debating the wrong topic. We should not be debating about whether the bolts were right or wrong. Rather we should be debating is(Content Moderated)
2.I also have set up a gear anchor there and used the aforementions bolts. Taking my 50year old mother(who is terrified of hieghts, kudos to her even leaving the ground)for there to climb outside for the first time was one of the most rewarding days of my 20yrs of climbing. The thing that made it easy and SAFE was the bolted anchor. She really trusted it and felt safe enough to try climbing. Thanks Steve for taking that opportunity away from us again.
3.My final question is if You really care about protecting the wilderness preserve at Pollys cove how much trash did You haul out from the parking area? And if the answer is zero when are You planning on organizing the CNS cleanup there. I know there is a oil tank on the trail that could be hauled out. Sack up man and dont hide behind Your morale high ground of ethics and BS.
You dont like bolts. Those were the easiest for you to remove. You did it without giving 2 poops to the rest of the community. You suck!
Keith Im thinking pay per view would be a good idea.
SeanT

[jeremy]

how do we better the future without first fixing our mistakes of the past? bolt anchors should not be placed for convenience, except for when the landowner has given consent. if a gear anchor is possible within a reasonable distance, use them. What if Joe Blow Local is walking around the top of PC and trips over a bolt sticking straight up out of the rock and falls to his death? Those bolts were dangerous to the public.
on a more interesting note, main face was great today!

[The Mitt]

I guess its time to start making all the high ball boulder problems "safe" and "accessible". I would have thought the NS boulderers would be of the opinion that if you don't have the sack to get to the top then don't get on it.

At what height should we start putting up anchors? 10'?

I think calling people names is pretty harsh, the only reason I don't delete your post for TOS violation is because I am in the debate and it could be interpreted as a bias. Sean that is pretty uncool.

M

[jeremy benjamin]

And once again they were not added for commercial reasons (which certainly plays a role).

Why does the fact that the bolts were put there by a company play a role? The company does not exist anymore, but the bolts they placed at Polly's were well liked and well used by many members of the Nova Scotian climbing community. The only 'role' that was played by the fact that they were placed by a company for commercial reasons seems to be that you (Mitt) and Steve took great personal offense to it. The origin of the bolts was irrelevant they were there, they were used and they should not have been removed.

The arguments that it is a preservation area and we should practice leave no trace is beautiful flowers. We absolutely should practice leave no trace practices, that is legit, not just at Polly's because it is a preservation area, but everywhere we climb, boulder, camp ect. BUT Those bolts REDUCED the impact on the area by climbers who wanted to set up top ropes. Now climbers who want to set top ropes at Polly's have to trample around off of the path destroying the vegetation at the top setting up and removing anchors every time. How is that closer to leaving no trace then using the bolts that were already there? A second reason the leave no trace argument is beautiful flowers is that 8 bolt scars look no better than 8 bolts so you have improved nothing. The damage (if you consider it to be so, and as has been stated that is another argument) was done. Removing the bolts did nothing to improve it. But hey at least you showed Virtigo who is the boss of where bolts can go in Nova Scotia, you really stuck it to the man there.

Jeremy, I don't buy the safety argument either, although it is the most intelligent attempt at justification of the removal of the bolts so far, it is a pretty big stretch man. If Joe Blow is walking that close to the edge of a 20 foot drop and not paying attention to where he is walking then maybe Joe Blow wants to take a header.

The removal of the bolts (in my opinion) was a hugely selfish, absolutely unwarranted action. Really all it amounts to is vandalism. How would you feel Steve if some nice person decided that he didn't like bolts that you regularly use for a collection of his own beautiful flowers reasons and took it upon himself to go out and chop them? You owe the climbing community an apology for stealing one of our resources, and I hope you can take your head out of your backpack long enough to read the posts on here and consider the fact that you had no right to chop those bolts.

[The Mitt]

Ok Jeremy B, what about the argument that the climbs were done before on gear and should be left in the state that they were in during the FA as per most area ethics in North America. What about the fact that the lines had become considered highball boulder problems that were done with no gear. What about the fact that it was the only place that had Top Rope anchors, that was their sole purpose. Explain how those reasons are lame.

Using your argument I can put a crap load of bolts at the top of boulder problems as long as people use them. I am sure that if I put top rope anchors on some of the problems on Dover people will use them. So are you telling me its OK to do this? Can I do the same with routes? Will you defend my decision to put bolts on these problems as hard as you are arguing that they should not have been removed?

By the way I did not take great offense to the bolts if I had I would have removed them years ago. I only live 10 mins away and have the tools.

M

[seanT]

Mitt, Punshons actions and lack of respect for the NS climbing community are harsh. They require a harsh response. A lack of a harsh response does nothing but validate his actions. If we follow his argument that anyone can do anything on the rock round here then look out because it will be free for all of bolting and debolting of routes. Do we really want to go there? Hello Ken Nichols? Google that name and see what comes up or better yet check out this link
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php? ... onlinenews
Im sorry if im ruffling feathers but some things have to be said and I am usually the one who says them.
SeanT

[The Mitt]

Really I could say the same of you about bolting beyond what has been considered the norm here in NS. The bolts over Rustle never sleeps, Ronald McDonald, the route out at railway. I think you have proven that there is a lack of respect for the climbing community. For every action he has taken you have done as many or more. I would have more respect if your arguments came from anyone else. Who did you consult when you put those bolts in? Do you think the community would be OK with the bolts at railway. People have already voiced their displeasure, same with Rustle never sleeps. Funny how no one came on here and started a lynch mob for you.