Bug City

[The Mitt]

So I went out with some of the guys to Bug city and all I can say is wow what allot of bolts!!!! Most of that could have been protected with gear. Shame on you guys. I went out today and removed them all!!! Stay Off my land!!!!



















S

[The Mitt]

Nahhhhhh, I'm just kidding. That place is pretty cool. I think its going to see allot of traffic and I know I plan on putting some time there. Good Job guys.

I wonder how many people are going to flame and freak before they get to this post?? Should be fun.


Mitt

[chossmonkey]

You should have had someone insert a post in between the two.


Not that you're trolling.

[The Mitt]

I mean the place is not all that and a bag of chips, but its got some climbing that does not exist in our area. Lots of slab.

S

[chossmonkey]

I thought most of the routes in NS were slabs.

[Nate]

Speaking of chopping bolts, its a shame to see the Polly's Cove bolts chopped. Is there anything else to anchor to on top of there? Beats the hell out of me why you'd take them out. Not really too much beef here, mostly just curiousity..

Nate

[The Mitt]

There are lots of gear placements for top roping, just about 10 feet back.

S

[ben smith]

For all those who regularly carry 20 or 30 feet of webbing or feel like using their rope to make a dynamic toprope anchor on a 20 ft climb...

Stupid move Sean in my opinion. When's the last time you climbed out there? Or were you worried that you'd trip over them walking your dog?

Whats the point? Is the climb somehow more pristine or adventurous now? No! Now its got a chopped bolt scar AND its a pain in the backpack to climb. It's not like you're protecting some last bastion of boldness either because most people could toddle up those dick in one hand and smoke in the other.

frig it I'll get this raging ethics debate going one way or the other.

[chossmonkey]

For all those who regularly carry 20 or 30 feet of webbing or feel like using their rope to make a dynamic toprope anchor on a 20 ft climb...

Don't forget the widgets and clamming devices for hooking into the rock.



Oh, you'll need a few more calipers too, to hook everything together.












Forget it.

Sounds like to much work. Lets just climb in the gym.

[ben smith]

Do you carry 40+ (realistic estimate for a webbing anchor set 10ft back from cliff edge, assuming conventional anchor with two loops leading to a power point) of webbing on you when you climb choss monkey? Especially if you were planning to top rope a 20 ft climb (Or more realistically, teach your kids/grandma/random paraplegic how to climb)?

I've led my share of grungy N.S. trad routes and its rare to need that much webbing to toprope a climb, because most climbs either have convenient gear anchors or bolted anchors.

Hell during a course I've set a gear anchor on sorrows end using a full 60M climbing rope as a cordalette and running the anchor back to a couple of trees, should we chop those anchors next?

No, that would be asinine.

There is a difference between being a grid bolting gym weeny, and not making life more difficult than it has to be.

I figure I could lead lunch box on gear, maybe I should go chop those bolts eh Mittens?

[Adam]

an anchor was chopped?

[Adam]

an anchor was chopped?

/hit tab twice and enter lol

i can understand chopping bolts in some cases but chopping an anchor seems harsh.

[*Chris*]

Hell during a course I've set a gear anchor on sorrows end using a full 60M climbing rope as a cordalette and running the anchor back to a couple of trees, should we chop those anchors next?

Aaahhh... the rope-a-lette! A few of us used a trad anchor like that last year in Maine. To tell you the truth... we thought it was funny. But, if I had to use it every time to set a TR on a 20 foot climb... that would be not so funny.

[pulldown]

Just though i would jump in with a story to give this subject a bit of relevance.
A bunch of years ago i had some friends visit from Australia. The wanted to go see Peggy's cove, i had a better idea. I took them for the hike to Polly's cove and packed a short rope, a few beaners, and a cordalette. Knowing the anchors were there this was ample protection. When we got to there i threw on my climbing shoes and "soloed" up the face with my light pack on my back. My friends had never climbed before and thought it was crazy for me to climb up there without a rope. I quickly set up the anchor and top rope, then rapped down.
Both of my friends climbed up and had an incredible time. On the walk out all they could talk about was taking up climbing when they got back home.

I'm not sure how those bolts detracted from our collective experience that day. I'm certain that others new to climbing have had that same experience and may have gotten them started into climbing.

It's interesting how it appears to be OK for an individual to pass judgment and remove bolts without the consent of the community, but not OK for the person who installed them. Just saying that maybe cooler heads should have prevailed in this case and a little discussion would have been nice before action was taken. Personally i would hate for my climbing legacy to be that of someone who discourages positive climbing experiences.

Just one more thing while i have your attention....


A new video is up on my blog. http://www.pulldown.ca

Todd

[The Mitt]

I believe that lunchbox is a trad route. Your welcome to chop it. I think it would be wise to check your facts, before you threaten consequences. Have a great day.

M

[ben smith]

my mistake- the line you bolted on the right side of main face (Deep Throat perhaps?)

not chopping it as a "consequence" but if you feel like bolts need to be chopped regardless of the quality of the climbing experience that they offer thats the first place I'd head

Maybe now we can get some sort of community consensus- who thinks the bolts should/should not be replaced and why/why not.

[jeremy benjamin]

Before you poll for a consensus from the community on whether or not the bolts should be replaced and why, which I think is a good idea, you should bring the community up to speed on the whole story so that those of us who do not konw the details can make an informed opinion.

Where are the bolts? Who drilled them in the first place? Who removed them? When were they removed? Why were they removed?

On the topic of placing and removing bolts In general, I am with Toddon the disparity between seeking community input on placing bolts but not when removing bolts. The act of removing bolts in my opinion is pointless. Once a bolt is placed the damage is done. To remove the usefull part of a bolt that someone wanted there and leave a usless bolt scar in it place makes no sense to me. I think opinions should be sought when placing new bolts, and when removing bolts.

But hey I am just a boulderer. My beef is with whoever moved the boulders at the start of Sang de Dragon. Fess up!

[ben smith]

actually these bolts were discussed in a thread back in '06 titled "Bolts at Polly's"


read it over- last 2 post are people saying that they will be out using those bolts soon, Mitt quiets up after Mothecat offered to go dog walking, the bolts seemed to be useful in allowing people to avoid damaging the cliff top ecosystem scrounging around for gear.

2 years later without consulting others in the community the bolts are chopped...

Thats beautiful flowers.

My opinion, make of it what you will.

[Fred]

Before this conversation gets more heated I would like to remind everyone of the Terms of Use of this website (follow link above).

Please keep the discussion constructive.

thank you

Fred

[chossmonkey]

Do you carry 40+ (realistic estimate for a webbing anchor set 10ft back from cliff edge, assuming conventional anchor with two loops leading to a power point) of webbing on you when you climb choss monkey? Especially if you were planning to top rope a 20 ft climb (Or more realistically, teach your kids/grandma/random paraplegic how to climb)?

Yes. Though it wouldn't take me 40' to set up a TR with gear that close to the lip.

I have probably close to 100' of webbing not counting the stuff Rebecca brought into the relationship. While I wouldn't drag it all with if I know I don't need it an extra 40 feet is hardly going to hurt me.

Do you bring a 60m rope to TR a 20' cliff? Or for that matter any number of NS cliffs?

A bit of webbing is a drop in the bucket compared to the same amount of rope.



Unless you are teaching someone to be a gym climber, convenience shouldn't be the first lesson.

[ben smith]

Please explain, assuming you are belaying from the bottom and don't want the rope to rub: Normal anchor with 2 pieces of gear set 10ft back from cliff edge- assume they are next to each other. Need at bare minimum 2X 20ft strands for rope if you set a flowers anchor with 2 independent strands tied off at each end- normal scenario want an equalized and redundant anchor so 4x 10 ft of rope plus knot, and increases as pieces get farther apart from each other.

It is much simpler if you belay from the top or don't care about your rope but other factors make this a poor choice (if you bring kids out, top is delicate etc.)

I agree that we should not have bolted anchors on every line (although this is standard at many areas). BUT if the bolts have been placed and allow the anchor to be set quickly with 10 ft of webbing why chop, especially in secret after online concern has been raised.

Read the thread from '06- odd sized placements on top of the cliff (large cams, spread out or poor tri-cams if i remember) in addition the top is fragile- and you have to tramp around looking for the placements.

[Adam]

just two pieces for a natural anchor? aie aie aie...

[Nate]

Jeremy,
The bolts are at Polly's Cove in the amptheatre. They were placed above the higher walls on the right side that are usually climbed as highball boulder problems. I think they were originally placed by Jonathan Graham and there were 2 or 3 bolt achors placed.

Not really sure who got rid of them. Nobody has claimed full responsiblity at the moment.

Nate

[Stevo]

I cut the bolts around the end of last year so ease off Mitt. Before repeating the reasons (from the previous thread on this topic), lets have a review of the history as I understand it. Polly's Cove is designated a "Preservation Area" err..presumably to preserve it in a pristine state for future generations and the "Leave no trace" principle is encouraged. The Rock Court staff started to take parties to Polly's Cove to top rope short climbs. That is fine with me. Any climber who is not incompetent can arrange good belays 20 ft back from the cliff edge. However, Rock court staff decided that was inconvenient for top-roping groups and drilled a line of about 8 bolts along the edge right next to the hiking path. This was for convenience only and was not absolutely necessary for guiding parties. There was no consultation on this with other climbers so it is completely wrong to claim that they were installed "at the consent of the community". Nick Sagar asked that if the bolts were removed then could he please be contacted. I have been climbing around Halifax for over 9 years and this is the first time I have felt compelled to go out and chop bolts because I feel very strongly about this. Polly's Cove is one of the best pieces of scenic coastline accessible to the public in HRM. The reasons I will repeat:

1. I think it is inappropriate for a private business to convenience-bolt a public recreation area in order to exploit it for profit. I will repeat that I can't see a problem if the top roping use was discrete, used natural anchors and followed good conservation principles.

2. The "Leave no trace" principle encouraged in preservation areas should extend to climbers as well as every one else. It is not ok in my book to be disapproving of litter, graffiti and other environmental degradation yet fine to cover a highly visible piece of rock with bolts. This is not a grungy crag but high grade coastal granite scenery that is very popular with hikers, bird watchers etc.

Immediately after cutting the bolts I then sent a personal message to Nick Sagar informing him of this and giving the reasons outlined above. I therefore had discharged my duty to inform someone involved with the climbing school. I do not scurry around "in secret". I don't have the time or inclination to look at this message board every hour or every day or even every week so don't expect any immediate replies from me. If anyone wants to be confrontational then I can be found at the Henry House first Thursday night of the month or on the crag most weekends and we can discuss this in person.

Steve

[The Mitt]

Interesting. Once again I get falsely accused by the Smiths. You have my phone number, my email and you could have pm'ed me and asked. I wonder why you decided to ASSUME that I did it and post here publicly. I didn't openly say it wasn't me because it really could have only been me or Steve. It wasn't my place to sell out a friend. Besides I agree with them being removed, I just would have posted if I had done it.

I have set up the Top rope there and it is easy to do. There are other places here in NS that require long slings for top rope. First Face (most of the routes need 20'+ slings) Some routes on Main Face, Sorrows as well. 2 X 20' cordellettes will do fine in most of the areas of the province. Is it possible that you are upset because the rock court was planning on still using this place for business purposes?

So Ben how about you pull your head out of your ass and get all of the facts straight before accuse people of crap and offer extreme consequences. If your worried about the void I would gladly fill it with my foot.

S

[The Mitt]

As I said in the first thread, its not a huge deal for me that they were there I just didn't like why they were placed or that it was done without any sort of community consent.

The climbs had been done with and without rope before the bolts, and really should have been left alone. In my view its no different than adding anchors to Black Diamond. Really whats the difference? location and height, thats it.

If the bolts end up being replaced there will be no need to ask who chopped them. If I am going to be accused of the crime I might as well give the reason for it.

M

[Nate]

If there are some decent placements around the bolt chopping seems legit. I haven't really looked for any because the bolts were always there. How much webbing should I expect to bring along if I want to toprope there?

Ben, stop making a fool of yourself.

Nate

[Zamboni]

I agree with Stevo. But for all those who are pissed because that was the place to introduce other people. We now have Bug City.

Ben, If sean's foot is too big, I have a smaller one!

Conan.

[chameleon]

Would you be wearing crampons, Conan?

This thread has some disturbing revelations for me (not least of which being foot placement and footwear).
8 Bolts strung across the top of an established bouldering area! That is kind of weird and is suprising to me...(I was aware that Jonny G have placed a couple years ago). For some reason the exploitation of our climbing resource by commercial ventures really leaves a bad taste in my mouth (except for our esteemed guidebook authors that is!).

Steve's rationale for their removal seems sound to me although I'm not crazy about an active vigilante group removing steel from our cliffs willy nilly. Luckily though, I'm pretty sure that Steve's pitbull would only lick you death -- he's on a pretty tight leash (multicoloured lucky charm sling perhaps Sean )

Couple of questions to ponder, realizing of course that this whole subject is deep and murky:

1) I wonder if Rock Court staff [I'm assuming that they are indeed responsible - sorry if not] felt justified in adding bolts at Polly's Cove because of the pre-existing ones installed by Vertigo...I'm wondering about the so-called "slippery slope" justification process.

2) Nate (and others) seem a little put out now that they don't have an option [or rather a quick option] to top-rope at this established bouldering area anymore. Is it people's opinion that all or some bouldering areas should have top rope anchors installed (ignoring for a moment the apparent protected area status of Pollys Cove)? Would people like to see anchors at the top of most boulder problems on Dover Island? Only the highballs? Only the highballs that are easy and suitable for beginners?

Just curious.

Sean C.

[Adam]

anyone got pics of the carnage?