A Thread All About the "Right to an Opinion"

[peter]

"I think in general military types, particularly army, are very gung-hoe [gung-ho] and not all that open to civilian opinions. I think this is a cultural effect of military training."

For example, army cadets "are lucky if they remember to attach themselves to the rope before throwing themselfs [themselves] off a cliff."

Beware of "military people who only climb with other military people and are not part of the wider climbing community."

But don't worry, "the ones who climb with civilian climbers tend to be much more open minded", and these latter "military types ... have proven themselves to be serious and responsible climbers."

Well now, those were opinions worth sharing. Does anyone else have any?

[Postman]

Beware of "military people who only climb with other military people and are not part of the wider climbing community."

We are drilled in the military again and again on safety. We have people that are in charge of tracking every safety infraction that takes place on a daily basis. I myself have been conducting rescue training a local climb sites, and have been in shock at what the local climbers were using as anchors systems. I would be greatly satisfied if you and the members of CNS are teaching your new climbers to climb safe. Because I am the dude that gets the call in the night to come get you.

Rescue!

Geoff

[peter]

Thanks, Geoff. Your comments are factual, intelligent and helpful. You clearly speak from experience. You bring clarity where there is only darkness.

Unfortunately, this means your comments must be deleted from this thread by the Moderator, whom believes in everyone's "right to an opinion", not everyone's right to share factual, intelligent, helpful and experiential information.

You see, this is a thread all about "opinions". An opinion is defined as "a belief based on grounds short of proof, a view held as probable, or what on thinks about something" (Oxford English Dictionary). Please don't introduce the objective into a thread all about the subjective. It just confuses people.

Comments on this thread must be based upon prejudice or ignorance, or at the very least must be motivated by a Pavlovian response without forethought respecting content, intelligence or impact.

You must show an absence of restraint and reflection, and must begin typing your response without actually finishing reading the previous post.

Please try again. Your opinions are important.

[martha]

Hey Peter,

Is that what they taught you in Law School?!?!

[Fred]

Peter,

get a grip dude!

[climberwannabe]

Peter-man, I am glad you didnt talk like that in the car... I've gone cross eyed. I think I heard that statement before on law and order, or wait, was it The Firm?? hehe

I believe as someone who is both military AND a beginner or newb to the climbing realm that gathering experience from both worlds is incredibly helpfull. Geoff made a great point about safety tracking and the drilling, especially in his field... his job is to save people, and the skills must be second nature. But why dont the rest of us make it second nature? I'd love to spend a day training on rescue techniques... anyone else?

The military is extremely conservative in their climbing/ and anchoring policies. Civy street is much much more liberal, such as on sunday when we used webbing on a tree thats been there for 1 and 2 yrs before a 60 m repel... highly unlikely to see that here.

Steve Fleming

[peter]

Sorry, guys.

Teth using the phrase "right to an opinion" multiple times before locking a thread, and then expressing his ignorant opinions reproduced about in quotes about military climbers, just put me over the edge. He is the President of Climb Nova Scotia and Moderator of the Nova Scotia Board after all. I expected better. When it was followed by posts full of what lawyers call "bar room legal advice", I couldn't stop myself.

May I just say that a right is an entitlement, privilege or claim that is enforceable by some existing means. To say one has a "right to an opinion" is simply an ideological assertion, which makes some people nod and say 'yeah' only because they wish it to be so. It is like saying "God is Great". In North America, "Rights" are "God", but they are just as tangible, and "rights speak" is as acceptable to some as "religious speak" is elsewhere. That doesn't make it any less of a bogus, ideological assertion that just gets in the way of clear thinking about the mutual respect, empathy and self restraint required within a "community" for it to continue.

Now Steve, if we did talk like this in the car back from Parlee, at least you would have slept better and longer, while I talked, eh?

[Fred]

Peter,

I think perhaps you would see things a little differently as would I if we weren't personaly involved with what happened on sunday and in the locked thread etc... Thus, I think Teth's neutral standpoint as moderator is much better than ours at this point. There is no arguing that emotion has us both caught in this and it is only natural.

I have chosen Teth as moderator to the CNS portion of this forum. I did not choose the President of CNS as moderator of this forum. If that were the case then he would log in as CNS. He is an individual who I believe thinks quite clearly and is able to make good judgement calls and that is why I thought he would be suited as moderator. Although you don't agree with him on this one I know you must agree with him in other respects and even have to work with him on the board. Again, personal attachement to this discussion is involved here and it is completely understandable. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unfortunatly, moderation boils down to an opinion in the end. Someone has to make a judgement call at one point. Like I've said in previous posts, if it weren't it would be automated by a computer. As far as "bar room legal advice" in here... Yep. Forums are non constructive and full of bad opinions and information. That is what keeps us reading and posting. The only forum I have ever seen in my life that is aboslutely completely civilized is at http://www.photo.net It's like everyone on there just graduated from Harvard and spend their vacations saving baby seals in the arctic.

So now lets burry this one and lets talk about that ice in Parlee on Sunday eh! I was watching you climb Three Amigos from the top of Yellow Pillar. It looked fantabulous man. You have no idea. Got some photos you leading but you are so little on this massive flow that it's not even worth showing. I suspect you guys did Patrick's Choice afterwards? How was it? We got on Blue Pillar and it was quite nice. A bit brittle but not too bad.

Peace!
Looking forward to climbing with you again.

[peter]

Fred:

I sent Joe an email from home with a description of the ice Sunday as I experienced it. If he adds my post to yours, that will cover the conditions. Otherwise, I will forward a copy. I thought the ice was in great shape, although a little brittle where shaded.

Peter

[The Teth]

Well I will eat crow on this one. I voiced a biassed opinion based on a few encounters with young soldiers and with cadets. When I think about it I realize that I have climbed with many more safe and reliable climbers who work in the military than I have seen of the gung-ho irresponsible ones. However, it was the loud and foolhardy ones which tend to be remembered. I imagine that I am not the only one who’s opinion of the military has been affected by such encounters.

There are several military people who read this discussion board. Have any of you been involved with basic training and encountered these types. Or do they only act like this off base? Most of the ones I encountered were yong. Maybe it is just the type of people attracted to the military, and I just encountered them before safety had been sufficiently drummed into them. It could be just guys who have had their first repel training and, thinking they are experts, going out to the nearest cliff the first chance they get to do it on their own. (So that they can goof off without their superiores watching.) Of course this is only conjecture?

Teth

[dcentral]

Harvard is overrated.