Who's responsible in an accident???

[Guest]

I don't know what the law is on this side of the Atlantic but here is what I have been taught in Europe on numerous occasions:
On any climb, as well as in any connected climbing area, the most experienced person is responsible FOR EVERYONE.

Now, the implementation of this and when to interfere etcetc is of course open to debate.
However, I do seem to remember hearing about a lawsuit where a guide failed to tell that something was wrong with a toprope of people completely unconnected with his guided party. Somebody got hurt and they ended up suing the guide standing next to them - "You should have noticed that ..."

I mean, you all do it to newbies, when you see them use that belay device in a wrong way - nobody cares who they are, who you are, somebody's life is at stake here! I don't think I know too many people that were described in the events discussed in "the locked thread", but the situation seems to have some similarities.
Consider the above, I don't know about the experience of any of the people involved and I have no intention of offending anybody. However, when I think I know more about climbing than somebody who is just about to hurt him/herself I WILL interfere.

Felix Hanke

[tracstarr]

THe law can be a loophole all the way round. I don't think that someone not in the particular 'party' should be responsible for someone else in another. However, that said, I think most people, no matter what the activity, if they see someone doing something that may endanger themselves or others, something is usally said and action taken. But if someone doesn't want your help or advice, it's hard to do much about it. Climbers seem to be cool with taking advice when it comes to saftey, that i've seen so far.

Now where to draw the limit? hard to say. I'm an avid kitesurfer and one of a very few in the Atlantic provinces. I have a much bigger issue and problem and concern when it comes to seeing someone doing something un-safe in the kitesurfing world. At the local spot here, anyone new that we run into, if not kiting safe, we talk to, and explain the right way to do things. If not, there is some big pressure put on them to leave the beach. It's a bit harsh and has only really come to bad terms once so far, but the consequences are hugh. Unfortunatly, there is a lot less knowledge in kitesurfing than climbing and more people trying it and thinking they know what they are doing. Things get done wrong and un-safley. Way too many people getting hurt or killed.

So, what's my point? Offer assistance/knowledge if you think there is an unsafe situation. Hope that those listen. If you feel it's going to be unsafe for yourself because they won't listen. leave. or get them to leave. (boy is this gonna get a few people mad)

[martha]

I agree with you tracstar. I HAVE left climbing areas where there were cocky noobs around who didn't want my help/advice. I left before I had to watch someone die. It has happened in Kamouraska a couple of times, and even in Welsford a time or two.

For the most part however, most beginners are very open to suggestions and help if put the right way. The ones that aren't open to it are dangerous.

I find with me, that men take offense to my suggestions. They don't like a 'girl' telling them what to do etc. Most often in Welsford when guys from the base are out climbing or something and think they know everything. It annoys me because if it were fred or shawn or someone else making the suggestions, no offence would probably be taken.

Yes, most of you know me to be very sarcastic and a smart ass etc, but when talking to someone about climbing safety i am not like that, and don't cast that sort of attitude whether it is a guy or gal.

I watched a guy lead climb on a static line in Gagetown once after I told him it was a static line and wasn't safe and explained why. He ignored me, and then when he got on the ground the instructor there saw them and told them not to use that rope because it was a static line.

Can you imagine if he had taken a fall?! What could I do? hold him down on the ground?

Simple things like 'back clipping' that new climbers just don't get can be fatal. I know I've shown a dozen people or more how fast a rope can fly out of a back clipped biner. Boy do their faces ever go blank when they realize their mistake.

Anchors is another one. Phew, I had to fix a guys anchor in Welsford (I talked about this in a previous thread) one time and he wasn't impressed at all. but I had to build an anchor beside him, so I wasn't about to leave it as the death trap that it was.

I also have mentioned anchors to people who have webbing or slings girth hitched on trees or together that aren't tight...just waiting for that friction. that is another fun test to do with someone...take two pieces of webbing and rub them together hard and fast until they burn through. It takes about 3 seconds. That is a good thing to show people who are resistant to making their anchors a little neater and tigher. Opens some eyes.

[mike]

The thing is not to be concerned who made it happen.

It's how to make it not get worse.

I'm no student of the legal system and don't really know anything about litagation whatsoever.

I'm just speaking from my moral standards.

We are all responsible to each other once an accident has occurred.

Stick together friends- one day it could be U

[The Teth]

Martha, I think in general military types, particularly army, are very gung-hoe and not all that open to civilian opinions. I think this is a cultural effect of military training. You got to hype yourself up to have the courage to face enemy fire, but they do not always realize that this is not the appropriate approach to all risky situations. The worst examples I have seen are cadets (teenage army types!). They are lucky if they remember to attach themselves to the rope before throwing themselfs off a cliff. I saw one get so out of control that he rolled five reevaluations from one side of the cliff to the other while repelling. One of his compatriots tossed a full water bottle from the top of the cliff to his friend at the bottom, and the idiot actually tried to catch it.

This commentary is mainly in reference to military people who only climb with other military people and are not part of the wider climbing community. The ones who climb with civilian climbers tend to be much more open minded. I would have no problem climbing with Bert, or Scot Gunther, or any number of military types who have proven themselves to be serious and responsible climbers.

The Teth

[martha]

I have to admit, I have seen some pretty sketchy gagetowners coming to welsford.

One guy walked past us at Joes Garage and we said hello etc. We asked him where he was climbing, he says, "oh, just out for some rappelling".

Fun stuff eh?

Anyways, wasn't 30 minutes later we saw him get 60m down a 70m rappell and have to ascend the rope with a heavy pack on. Funniest thing I ever saw. He walked past us later and shyly said, "that cliff was higher than I thought".
If he had only asked, we could have told him.

On another occasion, I watched 3 military buffs rappelling off something in fine style, bouncing out from the cliff the whole way down. Just like in the movies. No thought for the sharp granite edge that the rope was laying over.

I can't say that I feel that ALL military types are like this. That would be like saying all men are pigs. However, I have seen some sketch. But hey, I've seen lots of sketch among civilian climbers too.

[Guest]

And this one time.......At band camp!!!!

[Guest]

I jammed a cam in.....

[Guest]

A big bro???

[Guest]

Where the hell did this come from? A simple question about law turns into Teth and Cara flowering on military people. You can say that you don't mean everyone but your message comes out loud and clear. Its kinda like starting a statement with no offense but.... (I'm going to offend anyway).

Well Teth and Cara as a military person I am very offended, many of the military people that I have climbed and rappelled with were just like other Canadians (imagine that). Yes some have "gun-ho" attitudes, and climb with a little more balls than brains but no more or less than the civilians I have climbed with.

JEEZ CARA HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE WOULD U LIKE TO INSULT OR ALIANATE. Teth there is a large number of military people in Nova Scotia who climb good to see you are representing them!!!! By flowering on them.

As for the "teenage Army types" I would hope that instead of blaming the army for the inappropriate behaviour you would blame the adults in charge for doing a poor job.

My 2 pennies

Mitt AkA Sean K
Petty Officer 2nd class or sergeant for you army types.

[Fred]

ahahahaha

I love forums. Seriously though. At this point it doesn't matter what they say. If you were upset at their comments in the ice climbing thread then anything they say now even if it's to say "the gym will be closed on Sunday" will sound like the worst thing in the world.

[martha]

I I can't say that I feel that ALL military types are like this. That would be like saying all men are pigs. However, I have seen some sketch. But hey, I've seen lots of sketch among civilian climbers too.

Hey sean, did you read this part of my post as well? or just the examples of sketch?

I can list you a dozen example of sketchy civilian climbing behaviour to my only 3 of military. but we were talking about military so that is why I posted it.

sheesh.

chill out people. seriously!!!

[climberwannabe]

Ok, I am an extremely open minded person... and I have to say that it is VERY hard to offend me, as I am usually offensive myself. BUT... I am very offended from all this banter about the military.

I am in the military and has anyone seen me do something stupid or un-thoughtful? AM I cocky? Do I not constantly ask for beta until its almost annoying?

Wow, its really easy for ignorant (and I am referring to the definition of ignorant as 'not knowing what you are talking about') people to talk about or generalize the military into one class. But you have to understand that people are not born into the military... they are not hatched in bases and indoctrinated from infants to be "cocky" and "war-mongers". And they are nothing like the 17 yr old US Army soldiers you've seen talking on the movie Fahrenheit 911. These people come from all walks of life, all around the country. If they are cocky, or thick headed, or whatever have you, then chances are they were like that long before they joined the military.

Another thing, about army cadets... THEY ARE NOT MILITARY, and they are TEENAGERS (who, as I remember, get easily excited in some situations, you know from that stuff called 'hormones'). So maybe you should get your facts straight about the people that haven given up some freedoms to do a job (no waving the flag intended, but its true) that they are most likely proud of doing.

Oh and I almost forgot... that statement about the army being bred into a lifestyle of killing is quite simply appalling. Who would appreciate it if I came on here and said all civilians are lazy, un-patriotic, whining pasifists????


Steve Fleming

[martha]

you know what? we are all entitled to our opinions. whether they are based on fact, fiction, intellect or stupidity. We all hold our own opinions on different situations. Speak your opinions people, we want to hear them. I won't take your opinion personally, please don't take mine that way.

I'm sure we've all got opinions on issues that others won't agree with. we all have our biases, prejudices and hates.

Hey, I've got some strong opinions on things like religion, politics, drugs, abortion, native issues, fishing, environment, world trade, child labour and a host of other things that I'm sure you'd all hang me for, but they are MY opinions. They don't make me a bad person and they don't make my thoughts invalid or moot.

If anything perhaps they open your eyes to a train of thought you hadn't seen before. I surely hope that your opinions open my eyes some. And you know what...if you tell me something that makes me rethink my opinion, I'm certainly 'man' enough to stand up and say, 'Hey, you know what, that makes a lot of sense, and I am going to change my opinion slightly based on this new bit of information'.

[Fred]

Oh and I almost forgot... that statement about the army being bred into a lifestyle of killing is quite simply appalling.

Climberwanabe,

I can't seem to find that quote in this forum. Can you show me who you are quoting here?

I did see a comment where Teth said:

You got to hype yourself up to have the courage to face enemy fire, but they do not always realize that this is not the appropriate approach to all risky situations.

Only sightly different eh?! If you read it from my neutral standpoint it sounds fine. I think perhaps you took it the wrong way since you may have a complex about it all? Perhaps now YOU are assuming Cara and Teth are generalizing as the ignorant Civilians no? They both clearly said they know several competent military climbers and also stated there are incompetent civilian climbers. Pick appart the entire post not just the bad stuff.

Peace out dude.

[The Mitt]

Your view point is hardly neutral, I'd defend my girlfriend aswell.

Sean

[Fred]

Since when is Teth my girlfriend? TETH!!! Is there something you aren't telling me.


Sean,

solid response.

[martha]

Your view point is hardly neutral, I'd defend my girlfriend aswell.

Sean

sean, wait until I say something that fred DOESN'T agree with, he'll be the first to cut me up!!! he isn't always on my side...and everyone around here knows I don't need him to 'defend' me. I'm a big girl.

you want to take this to the parking lot??

[The Teth]

Well I will eat crow on this one. I voiced a biassed opinion based on a few encounters with young soldiers and with cadets. When I think about it I realize that I have climbed with many more safe and reliable climbers who work in the military than I have seen of the gung-ho irresponsible ones. However, it was the loud and foolhardy ones which tend to be remembered. I imagine that I am not the only one who’s opinion of the military has been affected by such encounters.

There are several military people who read this discussion board. Have any of you been involved with basic training and encountered these types. Or do they only act like this off base? Most of the ones I encountered were yong. Maybe it is just the type of people attracted to the military, and I just encountered them before safety had been sufficiently drummed into them. It could be just guys who have had their first repel training and, thinking they are experts, going out to the nearest cliff the first chance they get to do it on their own. (So that they can goof off without their superiores watching.) Of course this is only conjecture?

Teth

[Guest]

Teth,
The Canadian military comes from a cross section of the Canadian people. All walks of life from many different life experiences, basic training for many military members is a life altering experience (neither good nor bad). Many people believe that basic training conforms its members into one type of person. I can tell you this is not entirely true. I don't know any huge differences between an average Canadian and a member of the military. The military didn't teach me to be an obnoxious ass I was born that way and practice whenever possible.

Your pseudo apology just does not cut it. In your second para you go right back to generalizations (they, them). I have been involved with basic training both as a recruit and as a standards and training petty officer (on a limited basis). I have also taught rappelling within the CF so I have first hand knowledge on both counts. I have seen no difference from recruits than your averaged age university student in personal discipline when letting their hair down, so to speak. I also have seen no difference in military members after taking a rappel course than civilians who take rappelling. Why because there is little difference.

Plane and simple your first comments were unsatisfactory and near defamatory towards a group of people some of which you represent. Your second comments were a feeble attempt at justification and were also unsatisfactory. I would suggest that before you debase a large section of Nova Scotia you get your facts straight.

Sean K

PS. Before someone says "dude chill out" this is way beyond that. I have friends who have died for this country, and will not stand idly by and listen to someone flowers on them. Offence taken!!!!

[The Teth]

Sean, your profession has a public relations problem. They may have been acting like idiots because they where young and foolish, but they identified themselves as military, so their actions influenced my perception of the group they identified themselves with. When I thought of military climbers they were the ones I thought of. Let there be no mistake here. In this post, “they” and “them” refers to a number of individuals who’s actions were so memorable that they effected my perception of the group they identified with.

In response to my initial post a number of people who I had mentally labelled as “climbers” reminded my that they were also “military”, which forced me to reexamine my impression of “military climbers”. Thus, I realized that I had a bias based on an incomplete examination of the facts. No one is without bias. The best I can do is to recognise them when I see them and be willing to reexamine my perceptions.

I was wrong, but then, if I had said nothing I would still hold that opinion. So, overall I am not sorry for making the comment. Besides it probably kept Trackstar entertained, and it gave you a chance to feel superior, so plenty of good came out of it.

Teth

[mitchleblanc]

The Canadian military comes from a cross section of the Canadian people. All walks of life from many different life experiences, basic training for many military members is a life altering experience (neither good nor bad). Many people believe that basic training conforms its members into one type of person.

I'll jump in here and agree with Teth. Yes, I think that basic training "moulds" soldiers; It must, otherwise the military would not function as it should. But more importantly (and perhaps a fact you are missing, since you're not exactly "objective"): There's a certain type of person that is attracted to a life in the military! True, they come from all walks of life, but there has to be something about a person to make them attracted to the military lifestyle!! Because being ordered around and told what to do, not to mention WAR ITSELF sure doesn't interest me, or most of the other dirty hippies I hang out with.

Sorry for generalizing, but people in the military come across as no-nonsense, barking, command giving, order receiving strict upbringing types. They distance themselves from "civilians" (even using that word makes me cringe), and they act as though they think they are superior, alot of the time.

I'm not saying there aren't guys in the military who are cool, but I think the "military personality" is alive and well, and you're lying if you say you don't realize it. Obviously not everyone is like that, but... that's what generalization is for...

[Ropeguy]

And tomorrow on Days of our lives(Atlantic Canadian Version)

Tommy tells Sally she has a big bum!!!!and Sally cry's and then she tell'severyone Tommy got his weiner stuck in a pencil sharpener!!!! and then everyone laughs at Tommy and call him pencil di#k and Tommy cry's and takes up rock climbing to meet people who like pencil sharpeners as much as he does!!!! You won't believe this end of season cliff hanger



Don't miss it 6 pm....... 7 central

[dcentral]

Wow this is the dumbest debate yet or maybe worst thread at staying on topic.

Are carrots better cooked or raw? Now that's a question for the ages.

Military memebers are some of the safest climbers I've seen. However I've also seen some very unsafe military climbers -- but most are very safe.

I agree that there is a sterotype of a person who is the military, and there are a lot who fit into that type everytime they open their mouth.

But the same can be said for "civies."

Actually the biggest group of scared nubbes I've ever seen was a group of Seaking pilots -- who would have thought.

Anyways, I've seen a lot of bad belaying technique out here I help some people who clearly are having problems but a lot of it is due too lazyness, or a general lack of understanding. Which may not be their own fault as the person who taught them might not know themselves.

In regards to the question, if you are witness to an accident aren't supposed to stay until either there is someone there more qualified to relieve you or the situation has been dealt with.

However preventing an accident that may or may not occur is something all together different. It can also get you into more trouble as if they do what you say and something happens I'm sure you can probably be held liable.

It's a slippery slope.

[mitchleblanc]

Actually the biggest group of scared nubbes I've ever seen...

The nubbes? Is like that nubs? Nubbies? How do you pronounce that?

The biggest groups of scared nubs *I've* seen were the nubs on my ass, when I went after them with that rash cream. Ouch. Now that was a hard send!

[Guest]

I think he ment Newbie's.

CB.

[mitchleblanc]

Uh... yeah. I got that.

[mitchleblanc]

Spelling Police reporting for duty, sir: Actually, he meant "Newbies" not "Newbie's".

[Guest]

I meant newbies. But I want you to pronounce it more like pubes. But with more focus on the b -- hence the second b.

nubbes

Get out your 133t haxzor spelling manual.

[dcentral]

What can be said for allowing guest accounts, but not being able to edit your posts.