Parlee Brook - The Nova Scotia Invasion

[ThomP]

I was the belayer, and part of the team that made the decisions on this climb.

Without repeating Peter and Mike's posts, let me say this: The posts by Cara and Fred are uncalled for, and amount to little more than gratuitous advice that is neither needed or wanted. While they may have been offered with the best of intentions, the application of a little maturity and judgement would have led to a quick 'delete' before posting after each had satisfied their need to reassure themselves that they are safe and responsible climbers.

I also find your characterization of Dave offensive as well, but will let him speak for himself if he so chooses.

Finally, I easily retrieved the screw the ice tool from the wall so there's no booty there, good or bad.

Thom Parker

[Fred]

In case these were missed the first time I'm reposting them.

We did experience a few mishaps.

If you are going in soon, don't be alarmed by all the blood in the gully. 'Twas but a scratch. I am told that the emergency room in Sussex is surprisingly fast.

Left a screw and 'biner on the vertical wall directly across from the rappel, if anyone is looking for some booty.

Peter

Cara and I had both agreed not to mention a word untill one of you did and we didn't. We entirely expected that what happened yesterday would be brushed off as a near miss and you did. We simply expressed our point of view as we saw it. You should have avoided posting about it if you didn't want to be critiqued.

And yes I take safe climbing VERY seriously since I have been involved with a very serious injury first hand and have known others who have as well. This is about climbing safety and education not someone's reputation or ego. Thus, the only point we tried to make (if you join the two quotes above) is that it should not have been taken lightly and therefore we responded.

[Eric]

Mike,
Years ago myself and I belive Steve Adamson (?) came across a small ice formation in a smaller, nearby valley close Parlee Brook, which sounds alot like what you're describing. You would known that you were in Parlee Brook.

[rendog]

What's missing here is some realism. Everyone is ok. The what if's arn't required as none of them occurred.

Sure there may have been things done differently but whatever- they were done the way they were.

they say that hindsight is 20/20. I'll agree with that as long as the mistakes that were made are not repeated. I don't know what Dave was thinking, I'm not a pyschoanalyist and I wasn't there, so I won't comment on the inner workings of his mind. It seems from what I've heard that he did what he felt was right AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. whether it was or not is inconsequential. Accidents happen, but for a more serious incident to occur afterwards...well that is lunacy IMHO.

I don't think that bashing is the way forward. Perhaps some critical analysis of the situation, maybe some advice for the future- positive stuff.

agreed Mike, Martha and Fred were expressing thier individual opinions maybe, but bashing...no.

If you are going in soon, don't be alarmed by all the blood in the gully. 'Twas but a scratch. I am told that the emergency room in Sussex is surprisingly fast.

a scratch that involves a trip to the emergency room isn't something that should be let go as a minor incident, especially when it is the result of a lead fall on ice.

and will learn from the experience. Good neighbours know when to butt in on, and when to stay out of, family matters of acquaintences next door. Please be a good neighbour, unless your opinion is asked for.

AS far as wanting/not wanting my advice...honestly I don't give two flying shits if you take my advice or not...that's your decision. if you don't want to hear what I say, don't listen.

Cara/Fred: neither of you know Dave well enough to write posts like these. I suggest you delete them. They amount to opinionated flaming where we come from.

they amout to filling in the rest of the community to what happened where I come from Peter.


Now that that is taken care of here's my .02$ worth...This is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and is not designed to reflect negetivly on the climbers involved in Parlee.

I took a ground fall ice climbing Nov. 11th 2003. first time I've fallen on ice lead. I was tought that when I'm climbing if things "feeling right", I'm not talking about anything else except simple intuition here, then it's time to come down. Peter you saw this first hand when we were in Baxters Harbour on that piece of ice. A climber must realize when they are in over thier head and when to retreat. or conversly when to realize it's just nerves and then soldier on.

Pride IMHO has no place on an iceclimb, or any climb for that matter. I don't know how many times I've had to abck off a climb because the little voice in my head was telling me to go home. it's happened on some of the major test pieces of the Rockies, it's happend on moderate grade 3's as well.


Bottome line of this long winded piece is think before you commit. If something is over your head and is beyond your ability, eat crow, ask for help and you'll avoid instances that involve a trip to the ER.

Hope you're ok Dave...more wounds to explain to the partners huh? lol[/quote][/b]

[sb]

Very well put Rendog. I can't comment directly as I wasn't there and I don't know anyone involved except for the ones who witnessed it... but...without directing a comment at any specific person...multiple 20-30 footers with deck or ledge fall potential?? This ain't sport climbing! You got lucky and were able to walk to emerg. Ditto that any trip to emerg resulting from ice climbing shouldn't be passed off as a "minor scratch". I've always said it takes a bigger person to back off than to continue on when things "aren't right". Some might say I have no sack...but I guess I really don't care. And Parlee is a pretty serious place to get hurt. Although not seeming that far from your car, any recovery of a person not able to help themselves would be a very serious undertaking involving everything from EMS, police, helicopter, SAR, etc. My guess is that you'd be lucky to get taken out the same day.

[martha]

thank you shawn. that is all I was trying to say. That it wasn't a situation to be taken lightly for anyone who was there. Because we all would have been a part of it HAD something more serious happened, luckily it didn't. and we all can learn from it too.

[rob]

thank you shawn. that is all I was trying to say. That it wasn't a situation to be taken lightly for anyone who was there. Because we all would have been a part of it HAD something more serious happened, luckily it didn't. and we all can learn from it too.

i'm sure dave has learned. i'm also sure he doesn't need you and fred telling him he was wrong to try. you are ice climbing - people get hurt. if you don't want to be around it then don't climb. even experienced climbers get hurt so get off his case. he made a mistake and lives to reflect on it. i'm sure he won't make that mistake again. stop assuming everyone wants to hear your 20/20 hindsight advice...

[mike]

What does IMHO mean?

Ok- directions to where we were.

Park at the parking place.

Take the second trail on the right when walking along the trail from the parking place.

Follow it down to a brook. Acrossed the brook is another hill.

You can either cross the brook, turn to face down stream then contour until you come to the ice (probably 30-40 minutes). Or you can walk straight up over the hill and keep walking until you come to the first gully. This gully is where the ice is (around 15 minutes).

Damn snowshoe tracks- it was like the folks leaving the tracks were part of the Russian S&M snowshoers club. Up one valley then down the same one just in time to climb another one before heading down it as well.

[martha]

hey mike...

where were you on saturday???!!?!?

[The Teth]

I agree with Rendog.

Also, it can really ruin a climbing trip if anyone, even a perfect stranger, gets themselves hurt. Unless you are a complete wanker it means the end of your climbing trip as you get involved in the rescue effort. I say anyone present when an accident occurs has the right to comment, be they from the same party or visitors from half a world away.

Teth

[mike]

I know where I thought I was... and I know I was thinking, at the time, 'I can't believe I drove 3 hrs for this'

...now I know I was mistaken

....again

You see this is why I like mountains... upon getting lost... continue upwards... upon reaching the top... go downwards... make sure to park in a place that locals know how find... in case, upon reaching the end of the down part, you are somewhere you've never been before.

[Fred]

thank you shawn. that is all I was trying to say. That it wasn't a situation to be taken lightly for anyone who was there. Because we all would have been a part of it HAD something more serious happened, luckily it didn't. and we all can learn from it too.

i'm sure dave has learned. i'm also sure he doesn't need you and fred telling him he was wrong to try. you are ice climbing - people get hurt. if you don't want to be around it then don't climb. even experienced climbers get hurt so get off his case. he made a mistake and lives to reflect on it. i'm sure he won't make that mistake again. stop assuming everyone wants to hear your 20/20 hindsight advice...

Now I'm going to be less polite because this seems to turning on us like we are at fault here. I strongly disagree with you Rob. Climbers do not just "get hurt" especially when it's preventable and certainly isn't a part of climbing like we should just accept it or go home. Yes accidents happen and we can accept those but getting back on the horse to reclaim your pride on an adrenaline rush to take a more serious fall on ice, in the middle of nowhere mind you, is not acceptable. Well I guess you weren't there and don't know what kind of risk we were exposed to right? They were in the wrong and there is no arguing that. We kept our cool, offered our help and then walked away when rejected.

Anyone making bad judgement calls like that out ice climbing puts US (Me and Cara in this case) at risk. Because the truth is Rob, unless you just got out of a mental institution, you can't just coldly GO home if someone needs help and we certainly wouldn't. And any kind of rescue or rappelling or climbing in and out of Parlee Brook is a big risk. There is no arguing that. Right?

So call us immature and irresponsible in our posts if you all like but first start asking you who is wrong here before you point the finger at us. And again, let me remind you that we WERE silent and walked away untill the issue was brought up as a farce. "It was but a scratch" is asking for a serious mouth full of steam. I am not impressed with that kind of angle on this issue.

That is all.

[dcentral]

Mike

here's some definitions of IMHO.

http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=IMHO&Find=Find

Pick which one you like best

[mike]

Fred...

You are assuming that someone was wrong. This being based on the fact that you believe David to have been high on adrenalin when he made the decision to continue. Maybe that's how you would feel after crashing on an ice climb- but who's to say that that is how David felt???

I don't think anyone is wrong here.

It's kinda like when we were kids and someone built a sweet jump that we all hit on our bikes. First person to wipe out was the person in the wrong. Occasionally their parents raged and tried to point blame at the offending tradesman who built the thing and blamed all the other kids for applying pier pressure. Bunch of beautiful flowers, I say.

Ya'll were climbing together. Ya'll were exposed to the possibilities of rescuing each other. If you don't like those odds- perhaps you should email those folks in Alaska, who built the big ice thingy, and get instructions on how to build yer own out in front of the entrance to the emergency wing of your local hospital.

Like it or not- climbing is inherently dangerous- and accidents do happen.
People involved with any type of climbing should realize that stuff can go wrong real fast. They need to prepare for these possibilities, mentally at least, because eventually something will happen.

Whether you percieve this situation to have been preventable is irrevelant- like the boy scout old boy said- 'always be prepared'.

My question to you is: Were you?

[dcentral]

I have a question about incident reporting.

Does CNS have a policy on this? If someone is hurt at a CNS event is this kept in a log somewhere?

I know form being involved with other sports that injuries regardless of where they happen have to be written up for insurance purposes etc.

[rendog]

That's the best part of living and climbing in the mountains Mike,


sometimes you get lost and you find that all out AMAZING line that no one has ever seen before. but it's a crap shoot, sometimes you're looking for that amazing line, and you find nadda, jack.

it all balances out it the end.

[mothecat]

Most of the time I post so I can see my avatar up on the screen. Isn't she cute?

I'm going to have to agree with Peeter that Fred and Cara are outa line on this one. I don't think reporting incidents is what this board is intended for even if you feel the event was downplayed. It kind of sounds like you guys are preaching.

Sounds like Mike and I missed some good ice. Hopefully we'll get it right next time.

J

[Ropeguy]

Wow ,I think this is the longest one yet!! How exciting.........I guess you could take what Cara said a couple different ways,One as an offensive know it all, and the other as a no offence intended suggestion.I didn't take it as a finger pointing session at all......I think that falling sucks under any circumstance but hey,welcome to climbing,Getting back up and trying again is commendable for lots of good reasons,falling again and decking out on your face has to be the worst!!but hey,nobody's perfect,Dave is ok and more than likely has learned something about gravity(32 ft per second in case u were wondering) Ice climbing and the Sussex Hospital!!! I would like to say that I believe the comments were made with the best of intentions and not to belittle or offend.......I wasn't there and I'm just some opinionated so called climber with nothing better to do tonight except read all this crap however I do feel better now!!!

God bless all u crazy climbers.........

[martha]

Ya'll were climbing Whether you percieve this situation to have been preventable is irrevelant- like the boy scout old boy said- 'always be prepared'.

My question to you is: Were you?

Yeah, I was, and would have dealt with it fine if the need arose. I've been a part of one emergency climbing rescue and first on the scene of several car accidents and gotten myself and partner out of serious epics far from home. I keep my head on in these situations and deal accordingly. anyone who knows me well knows I'm someone who can deal with most anything that is thrown my way.

[David]

Time for the badness from NS to comment on the unintended controversy I've appeared to have caused.

First, a bit about the climb. Thom and I picked the line we did because we thought we could climb it. The ice was tougher than I anticipated and I struggled near the top of the first bit of vertical. My thinking when I ran into trouble was to keep going, get over the top and get a rest. That didn't work out and I came off. Thom and I talked after the fall, picked a slightly different route, I took several minutes to catch my breath and I tried it again. Same result.

Did I make a bad decision? It is difficult to argue otherwise given the outcome. Was I in over my head? Yep, no question. Should I have adopted a different approach when I began running out of steam? No question. Am I a crazed egomanic that had to prove I could climb this route regardless of the impact (sorry) on others? No.

Our prime motivation in tackling the route the 2nd time was that we honestly believed we could climb it. Thom and I talked about what I needed to differently for Round 2 and I gave it a shot. Unfortunately I ran out of gas and came off again.

After my first fall, I made a comment to cara that the only thing I injured was my pride. This was as a joke intended to assure her I was fine after the first fall.

The suggestion that Thom and I rejected cara and Fred's offer to recover my tool and screw or that we "pushed them away" out of pride is simply not true. Thom and I both felt we were more than capable of recovering our equipment. cara and Fred were in the middle of a climb and we did not see any reason to interrupt them. It had nothing to do with pride or ego as suggested.

Cara's comment that I took 30 feet is, I believe, an overstatement. I was about 1 body length above my screw and Thom estimated that I fell 10-12 feet total.

One of the things I like best about Thom, Pete, Mike and the other people I climb with is their commitment to safety. This is a sport with a steep (sorry again) learning curve. I spent significant time thinking about what I should have done when I ran into trouble. I've also spoken with those whose climbing opinions I value and feel that I have a much better sense of what to do now before I get in over my head.

I appreciate the many constructive comments I've seen on this site. Those include Fred and cara's postings, although I agree with some writers that they sound a little preachy and I think that accounts for some of the backlash they've received. However, good advice is good advice and I'm happy to take it.

Cheers - David

[martha]

I'm glad to hear you are feeling good David, and I guess I did take your comment about the 'pride' the wrong way. I apologize. I just didn't expect to hear that after such a big fall is all. adrenaline is a funny thing right? like too much caffine or something.

In anycase, you did fall more than 12 feet. Your first screw was at least 12 feet up. when you were on the ground, from my stand point, it was double your height, and you were nearly that far past it again when you fell..making your fall nearly 25 ft if not more. it was a big one dude. no question. to confirm that, we know that yellow pillar is a grade 4 and you were on the steepest bit of it...for a grade 4 you need a fair bit of vertical ice, more than 12 feet worth, and you were nearly topping it out as you said.

Fred and I both figured that you were just trying to clear the vertical to get a good stance and get in a screw. That is what anyone would have done. Perhaps next time even hanging out at the first screw for a while to get rid of the pump would be a way to build the strength for the rest of the climb.

I think you know we didn't mean any offence by anything we said. I'm sure everyone knows that.

We are glad you are okay.

Cheers.

[martha]

I have just confirmed this:


for a grade 4- you need 13-15 m of vertical ice... 13m is about 40 feet

your tools were probably about level with the top of the vertical section...so your feet were probably at about 32 feet. you nearly decked. you took a big fall man. a big one.

[climberwannabe]

Ok, you could totally cut the tension in this forum with a knife! Quite simply its aweful to read. I'm glad to see that you took everything so well David. Not saying that I agree or disagree with anyone's opinion, as I was there but didnt see the event... I was keeping Peter company while belaying Ben on the other side of the valley.

I just have a couple points to throw out... hope no one stops wanting to climb with me for it!!! These are just thoughts and dont DIRECTLY implicate my ethics.

I come from a little bit of motorcross background and I have to say... if you want to get better, you gotta push yourself to your limit. This always involves getting hurt. Now this doesnt directly relate to ice climbing, and I am not saying that people need to be reckless and stupid to better themselves. But I know if I was in Davids position I would have learned a great deal, which I'd never forget. So this can be positive, no????

Second, pride is a huge motivational factor in my life. Once again, it doesnt make me reckless, but damn I hate being beaten. I'd rather hang off the rope for 20 mins and get my steam back then come down (but I suck so I am always doing this, plus this is on top rope, and therefore a much much lower risk factor!).

Bla bla bla, anyways, ice climbing accidents are always preventable... you can stay home and watch Real TV right??!! hehe, well thats my 2 or 3 cents worth.

Anybody going out next weekend?!! : )

Steve

[Guest]

Ok Cara....sorry but now you are preaching. David said his peace and explained his point of view. His comments should have been the last post on this issue. The horse is dead! And at least David did it in a very mature and un-confrontational way. More than I can say for his partners who got their backs all up against the wall and started talking that "us vs them" crap. Experience is the thing you acquire the moment just after you needed it most.
sb

[rendog]

HEY TETH...TIME TO LOCK THE THREAD MAN!

[Ulysse]

I have to agree locking this topic might be a good idea before It get toooo
personal

P.S. Hey Rendog are you out west or in the yhz area?

[climberwannabe]

who is ulysse? have I climbed with you before??

[brad w]

This is getting rediculous.
Move on.

[mike]

Group moderation- sweet!

No offence intended on the last post Cara and Fred. Me and my main climbing partner are exceptionally prepared for outdoor screw ups. It's included in our job descriptions and, over time, has become part of the way we think.

Everywhere I go I think about what if senarios. 'Cause you never can tell when 'what if' might get ya.

[Richard Eh!]

My, my! What an interesting look into small group interactions and dynamics! Observations, analysis, conclusions, reaction on a personal and for some, on a group level...ethics...diplomacy (or lack of it), tact (or lack of it), compassion (or"ditto")...and on and on..("steep learning curve for some")....sometimes you have to look past the fly flowers to see the beauty in the painting! Two underlying common elements in the thread: concern ..AND PASSION!
So much passion for the sport!! Wonderful! I love it!
Complacency kills!