Rope rookie requests reviews

[mick]

I'm looking to buy my first rope, since MEC has a bunch on clearance. I expect it will be used mostly for top-roping and limited lead climbing around Nova Scotia.

Do I need a dry rope? Should I stick to 10mm and up?


I've narrowed my selection down to a few ropes:

A. Beal Booster 9.7mm Dry Rope (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_deta ... 0155912269)

B. Maxim Apex 11mm Dry Rope (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_deta ... 0155168299)

C. Maxim Apex 10.5mm Rope (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_deta ... 0155168302)

D. Maxim Apex 9.9mm Rope (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_deta ... 0155168304)


All feedback is appreciated.


mick

[Yann D]

I would recomment either the 10.5 or 11 Maxim. Top-roping is extremely abusive to ropes and will reduce the falls held rating almost overnight. I use a Beal Top Gun, 10.5. b/c it has low impact force (7.4Kn) it should be stretch more on top-rope, this will help with the ropes usability on lead alot. I always use a pulley as this trashes the rope much less. Normally you would'nt use a top-rope for leading at all. But i did the same thing you are. I will buy a 9.4 - 9.7 MM lead rope down the road (but i would never subject this kind of rope to top roping). cheers

[mike]

I wouln't take any of the advice listed above... Do not ever use a pulley in your top rope anchor. period. and again- never.
-Use two of everything- 2 slings, 2 locking biners, two anchors or trees or cracks or whatever- use 2.
-Dry rope is a good idea for these parts- or anywhere really.
-For top roping low elongation ropes are better that ropes that stretch a bunch. You'll want to consider how much slack you and your belayers like when you climb though. If you like alot of slack you'll want a bit more elongation then if you like to keep your rope tight.
-get a rope bag- use it
-look for a soft (supple) rope- they make better knots

Lastly, seek out all knowing sales staff rather than internet strangers when purchasing stuff like this. Go to a couple of stores ask a bunch of questions. Go to manufacturer web sites and research. Read some books.

...and finally- don't ever use pulleys in your anchors!
Mike

[The Mitt]

I agree with pretty much everything Mike said. If its your first rope, buy a thicker one. 10.5 is good, I find 11 hard to handle. Dry is best they not only rappel water but keep dirt out to some extent. Around here you don't need a 60m but if you go on the road you probably will.

And pulley's are bad.

Mitt

[chameleon]

why is a pulley so bad?

S

[Yann D]

Sorry, didnt mean to illicite such a strong reaction from you Mike> im obviously new to this blog
but im just giving my opinion. Your point about pulleys is well taken if its designed in such a way
that the pulley's failure would let the rock come free altogether. As far as any other drawback
to using a pulley id apreciate someone pointing me in the right direction as to what the prolem is.

P.S. he was looking for one rope for both top-roping and leading. So low stretch might not do for
both.

cheers yann

[The Mitt]

This is just my opinion. A pulley will be at the top of the Top rope and not able to be monitored to see if it is working properly. If it malfunctions the rope can be pinched between the wheel and the guard. This can cut the rope. Also while climbing you cannot monitor the abuse the pulley is getting. Lastly it becomes a single point of failure, thats why I prefer to use 2 biners (opposite and opposed).

I have actually seen a rope jump the pulley and be severed. This was in an industrial setting and not climbing related. But it was enough to scare the crap out of me and respect the use of pulleys.

Hope that helps.

M

[mick]

At this point I'm leaning pretty heavily toward the Maxim 11mm dry...

Why would this be a poor choice for leading? Just because of the weight, or will I find the large diameter difficult to clip into 'draws?

Anyone use New England Ropes, or specifically the Apex line?


cheers
mick

[Murph]

go to http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Ropes/Climbing_Ropes/Dynamic_ropes/index.html to check reviews....

[mike]

I figure that pulleys are bad, as Mitt said, cause there's only one of them.

Another reason would be the fact that there are alot of haul system pulleys out there with insufficient Kn ratings for anchors.

I'll digress and say that sufficiently rated (17Kn+) pulleys with some form of secondary backup for redundancy (similar to the use of the word redundancy in this sentence), would be a decent system. I'm not sure that the hook up effort would be worth the rope wear gain though.

As for the strong reaction... safety first. You made a recomendation- not an opinion.

Mike

[chossmonkey]

Sorry, didnt mean to illicite such a strong reaction from you Mike> im obviously new to this blog
but im just giving my opinion. Your point about pulleys is well taken if its designed in such a way
that the pulley's failure would let the rock come free altogether. As far as any other drawback
to using a pulley id apreciate someone pointing me in the right direction as to what the prolem is.

P.S. he was looking for one rope for both top-roping and leading. So low stretch might not do for
both.

cheers yann

The chances of dropping your partner go up as well. Not to mention you need to be anchored when belaying.


There is no doubt that it saves wear, but the trade offs in added safety concerns just aren't worth it in my opinion.

[chossmonkey]

At this point I'm leaning pretty heavily toward the Maxim 11mm dry...

Why would this be a poor choice for leading? Just because of the weight, or will I find the large diameter difficult to clip into 'draws?

Ropes tend to get fatter as they age. An 11 will probably go through your device fine when new but you, or more likely your partner, will be cursing you because it is so hard to feed as is gets older. Even in a tube style device.

If you only TR the 11 will be fine, especially if you will be going in large groups. But if you plan on leading, the fatness will get annoying fast. I have retired otherwise fine ropes just because partners refused to use them because of how they fed. As you progress in your climbing and get more ropes you will end up with a lot of "TR" ropes as you retire lead lines.

As to the dry treatment, if you only use it for TR rock you could take it or leave it. Ditto for sport. If you can get a dry rope cheaper than a non-dry then get it.

[chossmonkey]

Oh, I say get a 10.5.

They make a good workhorse rope without being way to fat. In general, the worse a rope handles the longer it will last. Mammut makes ropes with thicker and thinner sheaths of the same diameters. The thinner sheaths handle nicer but don't last as long.

[ben smith]

yo mick, couple of opinions from me

1) with a dry rope (some for sure with the drycoat affecting only the sheath of the rope maybe not all) that is used on N.S granite for toproping that spendy dry coat is going to be worthless in a year- basically you'll spend a chunk of extra cashola and your rope will repel water like a homeless dude for about a year then the quartz crystals will start ripping the flowers out of the sheath of the rope and she'll be soaking up water like a fat man at a wings buffet.

2) not a rope you mentioned but I'm a fan of the Eldrid 10.5 for a beginners rope- it's what me and the family started with and its yet to explode into a fuzzy catepiller of death and its going on 4 or 5 years of torturous abuse. its also usually the cheapest rope at MEC and usually the only rope they carry in halifax the rotten barsterds

[ben smith]

I'm a dumb ass unfortunately and didn't look at your links- go with the apex 10.5 and save about 50 bucks off the dry treatment. Thats gas and food for a week and 4 days on the road or 6 draws to gear yourself up a big enough rack to climb a couple bolted routes.

Although this weakens the rope to a certain extent and makes it heavier I've personally never had much trouble leading in the rain or snow with a non-dry rope- basically if its a sh!tstorm out you won't often be leading at the level where a couple of pounds of water is going to make a huge difference

[mike]

Good points on the pulley CM.

Makes me wonder if the lowered friction, due to a pulley, at the anchor would increase the force generated at the ancor due to the increased clarity of the 2:1 mechanical advantage.

Seems to me that more friction at the anchor would decrease force at the anchor due to the higher friction reducing mechanical advantage throughout the system.

ie- A fall on a rope secured at the top would be 1force. A fall on a 2:1 system would be 2force. -yup now I'm convinced.

Anyone follow that?
Mike

[Fred]

A pulley used to TR is only a 1:1 mechanical advantage same as using two biners. The difference in resistance for a conventional anchor with back-to-back biners comes in the sharper radius bend of the rope causing friction. The force on the anchor is the same.

I've only ever seen one other person belay with a pulley on TR. It was funny to watch the belayer get lifted and cut in half by his ground anchor. It took all he had not to drop his climber.

[Yann D]

thx, mike.
your point about having to have redundancy all-along the safety chain
for TR anchors is really important> i actually had a look thru what books
i had: Freedom of the Hills, John Long's climb series and couple of others
and they barely refrenced Top-roping at all, even in the index.

If your depending on a single pulley w/out backup, that's not redundant
at all.
Same as when you see a TR sling passed thru an anchor chain b/w two
bolts....If either bolt or the chain fails, the whole system fails> no good.

[mike]

Actually Fred, it's a 2:1... flip the whole thing upside down so you'll see it.

100Kg climber on one end of the rope requires 100Kg of force on the other end of the rope to hold him/her.
100Kg on both ends of the rope = 200Kg on the anchor.

Mike

[Fred]

check out link below for explanation on FIXED (1:1 mechanical advantage) pulleys such as one used in a TR system in lieu of locking biners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulley

The load to the anchor is the weight of two men (climber + belayer) but this does not make it a 2:1.

[martha]

1. It is not as safe as two biners opposite and opposed so why bother?

2. You use your biners (whether 2 lockers or one locker and one non) for everything else while climbing. Why the heck lug the extra weight of a pulley when it is useless for any other application?

[mike]

Yeah- fair enough. I knew all that but somehow got all sideways with thinking about the friction and forces and pictures of pulleys dancing in my head.

Mike

[STeveA]

For TR I would go with the thickest rope you can get. It will last longer since the thicker ropes have thicker mantles. It should not be a problem going through any belay device. If the rope does not go through your device then it is worn out.

The dry treatment also acts as an abrassion resistance so you will get a little longer wear out of the rope that may pay for the extra cost of the treatment. Some dry ropes have the treatment in each strand of the rope so it does not wear out as fast as the ones that only treat the outside of the rope. Ropes lose about 10% of their strength each year with age. 15% weaker when wet. 30% weaker when knotted. Do the math and you will want to start with a strong rope that can take abuse. If you are leading then there are different things to consider.

60m is the norm with 70m starting to be used. If you go to other climbing areas you may find 60m to be essential.

The thicker rope will easily fit through the biners in quickdraws. It is a bit heavier but this will just help build up muscles.

I have never seen anyone use a pulley at a tope rope anchor for belaying, and I doubt that you will find a manufacturer that would recommend it. The pulleys may be rated for the load but you would have to check whether it is a dynamic or static rating. I can guarantee that there are no climbing instruction books that recommend using a pulley on a top rope.

If you are worried about loads on a top rope anchor then you should belay from the top of the route. This will halve the load on the anchor compared to belaying at the bottom of the route. This is a much safer choice.

All climbing ropes are safe when new. No rope will break on a climb, however they may be cut by sharp edges or rock fall. The main concern with a rope should be the color. Pick a nice duodess rope that is distinct and fits your personality. Everything else is secondary.

[*Chris*]

For what it's worth... the UNB R&I club will likely be holding a climbing safety course series sometime over the next month or two. Anyone out there TR'ing via pulleys might think about attending. I'm certain that details will be posted on this site as they become available.

[martha]

The main concern with a rope should be the color. Pick a nice duodess rope that is distinct and fits your personality. Everything else is secondary.

[granite_grrl]

I'd go with the Maxim Apex 10.5mm rope, no dry coating. This is a nice balance between durability and thickness. Chossy was right on about ropes getting fatter as they age and become a pain to use.

Rule of thumb for ropes used by beginers mostly for top roping: get the cheapest rope you can find, ropes don't last forever and you can get a nicer one after you start leading if you want to.

[Adam]

you can make your rope last longer by learning how to extend your top rope anchor over the lip, thereby preventing your rope from abrading over the lip with every use. learn to do this and you'll save yourself a whole whack of money on ropes.

[The Mitt]

you can make your rope last longer by learning how to extend your top rope anchor over the lip, thereby preventing your rope from abrading over the lip with every use. learn to do this and you'll save yourself a whole whack of money on ropes.

learning this won't only extend your ropes life but will probably extend your own life as well. Top roping with the rope running over an edge is not cool.

M

[szymiec]

Pulleys? Its just another piece of gear that could potentially fail. Not to mention there is no real benefit to using one. If you have your equalized, redundant, non extending anchor all rigged up and you add a pulley, you eliminate the redundancy by using a pulley as your master point. Just learn the proper way of protecting the lip of the route as well as extending your anchor over the aforementioned lip to eliminate anything that will either break biners or wear your rope.

Edelweiss ropes have a nice tough sheath and Mamut ropes seem to be nice and supple.

Chris

[jeremy]

pullies, 10mm/11mm??? best option, buy what you think is right. ropes are not that expensive and you will form your own opinions the more you use your rope. trial and error. no matter what everyone says no one will agree on which ropes are best (my opinion, there basically all the same, basically...) go cheapest and learn from your own experiences/opinions.

JH