New Aid line at Sorrows

[Nate]

Got out to Sorrows today and got up an interesting new aid line.

The Tam Lin A1(?)/5.5 - Start up Double Roped Disaster, aid the left arching seam on tied off pins and wires and connect to Hestitation Breed Chaos. Work up Hestitation on small wires and free climb left out of Dreamberry Wine exit.

I can't imagine how people climb high end aid and have clean undies at the end of the day. This climb was lots of fun though. Could make for a dire free ascent. Holds are there, but the gear is tiny and sparse.

Peace

Nate

[Stevo]

Glad to see you are putting those pins to good use! With a few ascents we might free climb it with fingertip jams in the pin scars! (only joking)

[chameleon]

Nate, I remember imagining a free line following that seam. I also remember that whole flake is VERY hollow sounding - must've been scary banging pins into it?!!

[seanT]

Steve brings up a good point. I thought pitons had gone the way of the dodo...most aid climbers now a days are opting to climb "clean aid" ie hamerless. Seems ironic that I would get roasted for bolting but hammering pitons ..glorified chipping really is seen as a laughing matter? Keep that shiznit away from exisiting routes please.
SeanT the definitive..authority...all knowing expert on all things metal

[chameleon]

As I read Nate's post, it seems to me that the shiz-nit was not placed on any established line. However, I must defer to your expertise in all things metal.

[ben smith]

sean- I've got mad respect for you but that was some piss poor talk right there- although many aid climbers are climbing clean there are lines that won't go on clean gear- which nate is preparing for in newfoundland and on his road trip (on an unclimbed route no less) - and you want to compare that to bolting what is basically a mix between a crack and a staircase (i soloed it in the rain in sneakers last time I was out to railway) and being too half assed to finish the job (lets see bolted 5.3 crack to death run out on 5.12 nipple pimping...).

I've got respect for anyone climbing anything (especially something as masochistic as solo aid) yesterday at least there are some people with enough motivation to get flowers done.

ben (the nice person who is stuck inside and mad pissy and down to get the CEC winter flowers talk season underway)

see you league night!

[Stevo]

Sean, your post clearly reveals that you know nothing at all about aid climbing. First, knifeblades, rurps, copperheads etc are still very much the tools of the modern day aid climber, how else do you climb a fingernail width seam up a blank overhanging wall? Second, you totally exagerate the degree of rock erosion caused by aiding on pins. Rock damage is only caused by novices overdriving pins way beyond body weight so that they become difficult to remove. In the right hands, a pin placement will cause imperceptable widening of the crack. I would bet that someone standing on the ground would never be able to spot where Nate placed his pins.

OK so let us see how you and Nate tally on the rock destruction scale. Let us say you have drilled 20 bolt holes at Sorrows End (conservative estimate). Each hole is 1 cm diameter by 5 cm depth. That is a total volume of 78.7 cm. Let's take the density of granite as 2.75 gm/cm3, that makes about 216 g, nearly a quarter kg of precious Nova Scotia crag that you have ground to dust. I would estimate that Nate displaced a few tiny crystals totally a few milligrams. No contest then. Oh yeah, and when have you ever removed useless eyesore bolts and repaired the rock damage, for example, the ones above the descent at Sorrows, the couple at the left end of Railway, are they going to be your everlasting epitaph?

Last point: It takes big balls to aid on marginal placements, esp. so close to the ground. Testicles are not required for sport routes that have bolts placed 3 ft apart.

Steve out.

[Nate]

It felt like, on the whole, that the pins weren't overdriven. Some torqued out of position on body weight. So hopefully that means I wasn't placing to abusively. Anyways you can go check it out next time your there and see if you can spot the scars. I did place one piton on Hestitation to gain the horizontal flake but I just slid it in with my hands (hooking was the only other option...I'm not that brave) soo...no abusive of the gems.

On a more positive note, has anyone climbed that cool dihedral right of the rock pollution project? It looks pretty fun.

Rope season isn't over yet......

Nate

[seanT]

woaaaaa now You guys need to take a chill pill. Obviously you missed the light hearted jesting nature of my post. I appreciate all the positive feedback though. Thanks Steve you really opened my eyes and your use of math was very enlightening. (I didnt know dinosaurs could add)
Ben mabye you are suffering from malnutrition or whatever, (by the way you got first place this month!!!!Sick Sending ouch ...)
Nate, I did climb the diehidral to the right of rock pollution, using the bolts on rock pollution pretty fun stuff, but sort of worthless really.
So once again thanks for the personal attacks really appreciate it hope everyone has a super day out there!
SeanT

[Adam]

Rock damage is only caused by novices overdriving pins way beyond body weight so that they become difficult to remove. In the right hands, a pin placement will cause imperceptable widening of the crack.

i would tend to disagree... pounding out pitons causes rock to chip. period. it might not widen it much after the first pin removal, but given repeats, the scarring is inevitable. it's not *ONLY* novices causing this damage, though granted they'd probably speed up the process.

some routes would likely never see clean aid though so that's your only option, and hey, with enough pounding it might go free eventually!

[Rich]

Nate,

Nice send! Its cool to hear about people doing "different' things - not too often a new aid line goes down in NS. I know you you've been doing some solo aid on and off - did you manage to convince some poor soul to belay you or did you go about it sans partner?

-rich

[chameleon]

I did place one piton on Hestitation to gain the horizontal flake but I just slid it in with my hands (hooking was the only other option...I'm not that brave)

Nate, thanks for clarifying your earlier report.
Sounds like some shiz-nit did make it onto Hesitation (!) - which I personally don't think is very cool. That route is a committing lead and the possibility of breaking the meager finger holds or the even meager-er protection opportunities seems to me to be quite thoughtless. [On par with dry-tooling established free climbs I would say]. What do the aiders (all 3 of you!!!) say to that?

S

[ben smith]

i've broken crystals off hesitation yarding on nuts to set them when you go over from the rest into the thinnish seam (they ripped...)- is that better than a hand placed piton??

if a piton is placed by hand isn't that clean (i.e hammerless) aid?

[Stevo]

Sean, I'm also keen on preserving the rock but I can't really see the difference between a hand placed pin, nut, cam, tricam etc. There are British climbs that use hand placed pins for pro where there is nothing else, and I have occasionally used a skyhook for pro where things were desperate. A poorly placed nut or cam can cause damage to fragile flakes and crack edges if they are weighted. I might also remind you that it is not uncommon to see some Nova Scotia leaders fiddle a piece in, shout "take" then hang on the gear for a rest before proceeding. Sometimes this dubious malarky is repeated several times, and although the leader might think he is free climbing, this is actually A0, blurring the distinction between free and aid climbing. Lets say that someone tried to lead hesitation and rested or fell off on every piece. Would you give him a hard time for damaging the placements? And what about big fat climbers, they put a lot more pressure on the delicate holds that small skinny climbers, so should we ban the fatties from hesitation?

Cheers
Steve

[Nate]

Hmm..
I really didn't think the pin was that big of a deal. It wasn't hammered, I just slid it into a seam by hand like you might any piece of free climbing gear. I can't see how that would do any rock damage. In fact, being the one who slid it in and out of there I know there wasn't any rock damage. If it helps clear the picture up at all, it was a horizontal seam and the leverage was what allowed the progession. Gimme your feelings on that one Cassidy, is that still bad? If so, large apologies dude, it really felt like a legitimate move at the time.

For the sake of continued conversion and (hopefully) a positive and productive output, if one can't bash pins into an ignored and nearly unprotectable seam, where can one bash pins? Should that area be left alone all together or is it better to suffer a little rock damage and put up and aid route? This is a fun adventure of a climb and I thought it was really a great addition to the crag on previously untraveled rock. But then again, my opinion matters as much as anyone elses here.

Also, for the sake of our reputation, really, we have to stop turning into school girls everytime we talk about something. Especially on the forum eh? We're certain to end up being a New Brunswick climbers punch line in no time! Climbers are such a strong community but I guess even we're not above computer screen bravery...

Peace, hopefully no hard feelings,

Nate

[The Mitt]

I might also remind you that it is not uncommon to see some Nova Scotia leaders fiddle a piece in, shout "take" then hang on the gear for a rest before proceeding. Sometimes this dubious malarky is repeated several times, and although the leader might think he is free climbing, this is actually A0, blurring the distinction between free and aid climbing.

Hey I resemble that remark. Thats how I climb the easiest stuff

And what about big fat climbers, they put a lot more pressure on the delicate holds that small skinny climbers, so should we ban the fatties from hesitation?

Cheers
Steve

OK so the hike is off on Saturday cause I'm kicking your ass

Fatties of the world unite

Mitt

[*Chris*]

... I might also remind you that it is not uncommon to see some Nova Scotia leaders fiddle a piece in, shout "take" then hang on the gear for a rest before proceeding...

And what about big fat climbers, they put a lot more pressure on the delicate holds that small skinny climbers, so should we ban the fatties...

Hmmm... this one post makes a guy like me feel totally unwelcome in NS.

We're certain to end up being a New Brunswick climbers punch line in no time!

Too late.

[Fred]

I really didn't think the pin was that big of a deal.

It's not. How it can be compared to bolted cracks is beyond me. Nice send Nate.

[chameleon]

Hey Nate,

No hard feelings here. Dialogue wide open and useful I should say.
First of all i must admit my ignorance regarding aid climbing - and even free-climbing it seems Steve . Truly, I don't know what a "hand-placed pin" means to all people. Is it "hand placed" if your hand is on the end of a hammer? Why would you need to place a pin on a route that is lead with nuts - why not "hand place" a nut and high-step?
My only point would be - and maybe I'm way off base - but can we agree that aid climbers shouldn't pound pins (pitons??-same?) into established routes. I gather "hand placed" pins don't damage the rock---so long as everyone is clear on the distinction. A few years ago a piton showed up on See With Joy, which to me seemed totally unnecessary....was that justified?

Sean C.

[Scooter]

anyone want to go bouldering?

[john]

In New Brunswick it would have all been free climbed by now

[chameleon]

Hey John, looks like we need your big ballz down here to free these freakin' aid routes and chop these freakin' bolts!!! Then we can get happily return to our A0 phat-free-climbin'!!

[chris_23]

well your at it, i was climbing at ground zero yesterday and noticed somebody bolted a few of the routes...now this is just rediculous anyone want to go chop them with me tommorow

[The Mitt]

well your at it, i was climbing at ground zero yesterday and noticed somebody bolted a few of the routes...now this is just rediculous anyone want to go chop them with me tommorow

Now that is friken funny

Mitt

[Nate]

Sean C.
Well this is why I had to place it, the vertical seam ends before you can grab the top of the big flake so I was standing there high stepping off a weird little wire placement reaching as high as possible and my hands where a foot and a half below the jugs. I played around with skyhooks but they were none too pleasing. I saw a horizontal seam of prime knifeblade width and slid a pin in (sans hammer!) and stood up off it. Agreed that hammered gear should stay off established free climbs though. I remember a local guide book mentioning something about only clean aid on established lines anyways hahaha. By the way dude, hestitation had some of freakiest gear of the whole line! Those wire placements are tiny!

Peace,
Nate

[chameleon]

Sounds good, dude. When I mentioned the "place a nut and high step" thing earlier I was wondering if it was even possible - given that you have to make a significant leap when you are phree climbing! Next time, take your cell phone. That way you can call me just before you make any placements you are unsure of!!! Seriously though, that aid shiz-nit sounds scary-- a good skill to have no doubt, but who would possibly volunteer to belay for you?

Peace. out.

[cstamp]

LOSERS! YOU are all losers! I am a loser for wasting my time reading this crap.
If you people got in a circle and were a bunch of jerks you would be what you are (protecting the children here). I will not see you on the rock because you will be in your circle being jerks.
No wait, I quit climbing and I'll see what the surfers are doing. I wonder what their whiny complaints are? Local only; Beginners should surf here they don't know the rules; no cavaliers only dirty old hippy vans (You know who you are).
Nope, I will keep climbing and just keep known that you are losers. The only reasonable person is Scooter. word. peace. packoff.

Who is climbing this weekend? Give me a shout.

[Zamboni]

Seeing how I'm not in the exclusion list, I can only expect that I'm in the Jerking circle. Well if thats the case stamp than I shack my fist at you! Yes sir, you can go Fist yourself!

[Zamboni]

shake, Shake my fist!

[The Mitt]

LOSERS! YOU are all losers! I am a loser for wasting my time reading this crap.
If you people got in a circle and were a bunch of jerks you would be what you are (protecting the children here). I will not see you on the rock because you will be in your circle being jerks.
No wait, I quit climbing and I'll see what the surfers are doing. I wonder what their whiny complaints are? Local only; Beginners should surf here they don't know the rules; no cavaliers only dirty old hippy vans (You know who you are).
Nope, I will keep climbing and just keep known that you are losers. The only reasonable person is Scooter. word. peace. packoff.

Who is climbing this weekend? Give me a shout.

Wow I thought it was going pretty good until you showed up.

Mitt