Columbus bolt on Ronald McDonald Crack

[The Mitt]

Whats the story with the bolt on Ronald McDonald Crack? Bolt is like 2 inches from a protectable crack and squeezed between another bolted route?? I'm confused..

Mitt

[Zamboni]

Here's a picture of it.

[seanT]

The bolt is for the route PeckerHead 5.11a ffa sean thereien/Mike Kohler 2004 or 2005 not sure. You climb the crack placing gear then traverse the slopey rail to the right then straight up the face to the anchors. It is a awsome mixed route I am surprised more people have not done it. At 11a it is not that hard Hamboni it should be on your ticklist for sure. Originally we wanted the route to go straight up but it proved to be wayyyy to sick for us and is still a open project, certainly will clock in round 13a/bish. Hence the mixed variation. I made sure that you had to exit the crack and access a funky underclingy feature before i placed the first bolt. If someone else has added a bolt before the undercling feature it should be chopped. To try and do the traverse with out the first bolt would be very dangerous and most likely result in a ground fall. Any one who were to clip this bolt and then try to continue Ronald Mcdonald would be a idiot and shouldnt be on lead.
Climb hard
Climb Safe
Climb often
Peace Out!
Sean

[The Mitt]

that wall looks grid bolted now

M

[seanT]

I dont see you complaining about the bolts on Dr Funkenstien...and I have been to France and seen grid bolted walls, believe me that wall is not even close to being grid bolted. Seriously why would you be upset it is a high quality route, the crack in question is a flaring horizontal crack that would take poor gear at best, and most likely would result in someone decking if they fell. I know you have been at Columbus for that already so I would think that you would be happy to have a high quality SAFE route for intermediate climbers to get on. Have you been down to the Heavy Petter wall lately bolts a poppin! At the Phd wall you have 1 bolted line up the center of a featured over hanging face then a whole lot of nothing then Phd ..pure killer crack line...then nothing then Dr Funkenstien pure crack again then mossy corner the wall itself is quite wide from corner where Ronald Mcdonald ends to mossy corner on right hand side so if your looking from left to right at the wall there would be ONE bolted line on the entire wall. Please stop trying to stir up the wanktards. The line is legit, it has existed for going on 3 years now, get on it. Lead it with out the first 2 bolts then you can start spraying.
Yeah Baby!!!!!

[Rich]

Since we're on the topic.... Yesterday I was climbing at the short wall by the Railway Crag which one passes as soon as they get on the Admiral Lake Trail - someone had done some serious crack-bolting there! We led one of these climbs on natural gear (5.7 - 5.8 route at the far right hand side of the wall) - it took gear the whole way and was very safe in my opinion. What's more, it was my impression that the route is probably more fun as a trad climb - based on the style of climbing that it allows and the fact that the route can be continued another 15 feet after where the anchors have been placed. Not sure I understand but I suppose different people see different things.....

Rich

[seanT]

Hey Rich you will have to talk with Sandrine to get the name of that route as Im pretty sure she got the FA. I bolted that line about a year ago. Climbers have been talking about the lack of easy sport routes in the region for new lead climbers to cut thier teeth on and the Railway crag looked to provide that. Shorter routes, not to difficult, easy access. The line was bolted as a going away present for a good freind of mine who was getting into outdoor leading, sadly the day we bolted it it was soaking wet and she didnt get a clean ascent. So the FA goes to Sandrine!!!! Im glad to hear that it was not too hard as it fits exactly what a lot of climbers have been asking me for....easy sport routes. I know it would have gone on gear and does go on gear but I opted for bolts. Thanks for not reaming me out and for having a open mind.
Cheers, Sean

[Rich]

Just for the record:
Although I think it was bolted with good intentions and realize that a lot of people want easy clip-ups I think the bolts are unfortunate. Climbs should be dictated by the rock and climbers are best to appreciate what they have and to adapt themselves to their surroundings. If people don't want to learn to climb easy trad for whatever reason - perhaps they think its too much effort or have some reservations because they haven't been exposed to it in the gym or elsewhere - their loss in my opinion.

-rich

[Eager]

Climbs should be dictated by the rock and climbers are best to appreciate what they have and to adapt themselves to their surroundings.

Well put.

[tracstarr]

wait wait... my turn.... BOLT IT ALL! I'm on T's side! He found, he decided how it was to go down, and it went down that way. End of story. Maybe it could have used gear, but there are a lot of "trad" lines that could ( read should ) have bolts. Stupid death run-outs just to keep it clean. If it was actually a cliff of any serious potential or killer lines, I'm sure T may have looked at it differently. But seriously, that wall is nothing but choss anyway.

[seanT]

I too understand where your comming from and dont want to slide down the age old slope of trad vs sport but I ask you this...how many sport routes have you done that would "take gear" even some gear and did you clip the bolts? I had a freind back in Ottawa, super strong climber absolutely refused to clip a bolt if there was a gear placement near by. (Had to admire his conviction) He grounded out on a sport route and shattered his ankle because he refused to clip the first bolt instead chosing to place a piece of gear(not such a good placement, but there.....) Anyway... Keep on truckin!
Sean
ps does anyone know who bolted the face above the crack at the Railway crag in between the 2 existing bolted lines. It is sick!!

[Rich]

Keith,

I can tell you're not familiar with the climb we're discussing or else you wouldn't refer to it as "a piece of choss" - it's actualy realy nice and I think you would enjoy climbing on it. You're somewhat right in saying that the first ascentionist dictates the style of the climb but the overwhelming ethic in the climbing world is not to bolt solid granite cracks - to ignore this is to disrespect the history of climbing and other climbers.

Don't want to ramble too much but if you read my initial email you would have noticed that the route in discussion takes good gear the whole way and is safe - I think Sean agrees to this - so you're point about "stupid death runouts" doesn't apply.

I think it's common that people who aren't exposed to different styles of climbing to be critical of what they don't know. As you've been climbing for some time I can only assume you've done a bit of trad climbing - but in case you haven't or haven't enjoyed your initial outings I'd recommend you try it again. Give me a call if you don't think I'm too righteous!

Sean - Jeremy and I added the bolts to the top of that crack and I sent it last weekend - "The Bean Stalk" 5.12a. It is a wicked line and I hope people get on it. The crack leading up to the face is hard 10 and is wicked fun - the face is balancy but not bad when you get the beta sessed out. Thanks for doing the initial cleaning! We did a few other climbs on the cliff too - they haven't ben reported yet cause they don't have names.

Chears,

-Rich

[seanT]

you sent that rig?Suhweetttt!!!!! its only 12a?! cool i thought it looked impossible Nice climbing!!
Sean

[Rich]

Thanks dude.

[Stevo]

"but there are a lot of "trad" lines that could ( read should ) have bolts. Stupid death run-outs just to keep it clean."

I can't think of any such death run-outs in Nova Scotia. UK yes, New Hampshire yes, Colorado yes, NS err no. There might be a couple of pitches where a fall could result in a broken bone or two but you can break bones on boulder problems. It's all part of the game.

Steve

[sand]

Sean, I wish I had the FA, but Jeremy lead it when we went the first time so he is the one who can name it. The FAs I got are on another wall.... I will let Jeremy give out the info about it
Like Rich said, it is a nice wall and has at least 6 routes on it now. I even got on the 5.12 on TR for fun. Fun moves, but I am way out of my league on that one... Anyway, that place is very easy access and worth climbing

[chameleon]

Hey Steve, a fall off of Ill Wind would really hurt!!...as would a fall off of that 5.8 on the right side of the main wall at the Bow Wall...i seem to remember the weighted sling that i had to hang over the nubbin took flight by the time I neared the top!!!

If it was actually a cliff of any serious potential or killer lines, I'm sure T may have looked at it differently.

------let's hope so.

Keith, I'm curious about your perspective on the bolting issue. A few times over the years I've heard you advocate bolting of climbs, including bolting cracks if necessary..in order to make a "sport route". Often I find that the most opinionated bolting supporters are gym-reared folks that find themselves outside and are upset that their new-found passion involves some level of risk beyond their immediate comfort level -- "I didn't sign up for this...gym climbing is safe [which i would personally argue against !! ], therefore I want all climbing to be risk-free regardless of the history and context of climbing in this area". I know you are gym-reared (like most people) but it's pretty clear that you are not risk-adverse....given your kite-surfing and high-ball bouldering activities. So what gives? Why does it seem that you buy into the over-blown perception of risk related to trad climbing? [disregarding my initial comments to Steve in this post of course- ha, ha!!]

Sean

[Scooter]

I've laid my hands on some nuts, and cammed objects into various cracks over the past year or two which has lead me to develop a respect for tard climbing.

While 3 or 4 years ago I would have totally agreed with Keith, I must say that after having tried it a few times I can agree with the fact that if it takes natural gear then that is how it should be climbed. Personally it is the right thing aesthetically and morally. I say Leave the bolts for faces and the gear for the cracks!

No way am I judging anybody, this is just my personal opinion. It doesn't bother me someone else were to bolt a crack but I myself wouldn't.

Don't knock it till you try it!

P.S.
Boulderers can look at it this way, If someone were to bolt Exciter, or John Doe or any boulder problem for that matter, would you approve?

DISCLAIMER
This post reflects my personal opinions, while at the same time I admit I may be brown nosing a bit in a feable attempt to lure Cassinator away from his wife so he can experience true love with those who care for him most -- yours truly----Stamp & Scooter.

[chameleon]

Stop hitting on me Scott - and NO i will not appear in the next S&S video![/size]

[The Mitt]

P.S.
Boulderers can look at it this way, If someone were to bolt Exciter, or John Doe or any boulder problem for that matter, would you approve?

Well put. Stoners get your guns were going to LOC/dover for some bolting. just kidding. Although there is a V0 at dover that I thought would be a good sport route. forget its name though.

Mitt

[dpg]

Oh man, what a fun topic… sure to get out of hand.

How do people develop the opinion that if a trad route is bolted – the bolts can just be ignored and still climbed traditionally – so what do the bolts matter?
What if someone feels they need bolts every 2ft, or what if someone built a set of stairs/ladders next to a route to provide a safe/easy way to the top of the crag? The extra bolts and the stairs could be not used, but would they not detract from the quality/enjoyment of the route?

Also some people seem to feel the more bolts the better but don’t seem concerned at all by the fact that bolts create a permanent physical scar on the rock/environment – in many parks bolting is unacceptable purely for this reason.

Sure no one is out in scotia grid bolting crags that have pure quality trad climbs – but sometimes peoples opinions seem to be lead me to think that its not far from happening, or its just astonishing the lack of understanding for the rock, environment and ethics.

-for the record I am mostly a boulderer/sport climber (guess sport climber makes me hypocritical), rarely (if ever) a trad climber, never a mountain climber.

Brian

[Stevo]

Hey Sean,

Those routes you mention might just be R rated but I don't think there is an X rated route in NS or am I mistaken? What is that thing you did at Easter, moon something? Sad lack of Xs, we should really go and put some up!

Steve

[peter]

Some say ethics is personal, but I think it is collective.
There has to be some sort of hierarchy of preference.

If you can solo it safely, do so.
If you can boulder is safely, with a spotter and no pad, go that way.
If you can boulder it safely only with a pad and spotter, use both.
If you can't use the above methods and need protection, use trad gear.
If trad gear can't be placed because of the nature of the rock, bolt it.

I climbed in France and found the bolted trad routes ugly and unnatural. You want that here?

[Zamboni]

I know keith longer than any of you, and have "Had" the same ethic's so I can say this and not offend him. Fa-Q keith for bring issue up again, and again, and again. I know your sitting behind your keyboard right now with a grin ear to ear! But since everybody has put there 2 cents in, than so will I.

Bolts do not last forever, they will have to be replaced eventually. We will not see the effects in our lifetime, but what will the climbers think of us 200 years from now. Keep in natural!

Cb.

[chameleon]

If in 200 years we are re-colonized by Brits, their opinion will be much the same as now: "what a bunch of tossers!"

On the other hand if the French expand their realm it will be more like "zis The-rien, 'e wuz a'hed of 'is time, no? and wuts zis: a bolted bolder pwoblem - magnifique....thdose climb-bers from Bishup were not such nobs after all"

On the other other hand, in 200 years all of you will be considered "old guys" like me! ha!

[Zamboni]

I feel sorry for sandrien right now. LoL, silly french.

[seanT]

ahhhh You make fun of the French but they actually have the right idea...they dont look at climbing as trad vs sport they just look at climbing as climbing. It is the Brits and us silly N.Americans with our "ethics" that make it soo much more complicated and controversial.
btw Sean that was one of the funniest post of all time on this board. kudos!

[peter]

It is the Brits and us silly N.Americans with our "ethics" that make it soo much more complicated and controversial.

So, I can hammer pitons into sport routes on top rope, instead of using the bolts?

[Fred]

he is the one who can name it

how about? "Another Bolted Trad Climb"

[chossmonkey]

he is the one who can name it

how about? "Another Bolted Trad Climb"

In Europe doesn't the equipper name the route and get the credit for putting it up?