dasiy chain, again

[john]

I have seen a few new people around this year using daisy chains as their primary clip in point. This is always a bad Idea of many reasons, but if you are going to use it in the interest of those new to the forum check of this link.

http://fishproducts.com/tech/daisy_deat ... death.html

[*Chris*]

Good post John,
I think as long as people are aware of their limitations, they are an excellent tool. Although I haven't seen anyone do the death clip set-up this year, my observation is that folks are climbing above the anchor while teathered with only a daisy (or PAS for that matter). It's usually to gain a more comfortable stance.

Clip the power point, weight it, get taken off belay, then stay put! If you've gotta move, keep below your attachment... or better yet... clove in.

[Fred]

safety last... think of how not cool you look with a daisy chain.

[Burley]

Clove Hitch....

I don't post often, but this interests me.

Yeah, I use a clove to tie into the anchor on occasion... extending my belay position for a better view. Keep in mind that there are LIMITATIONS to this knot.

#1 All hitches must be tightened down before use, try to keep it weighted, and MUST be tied so that the load is applied next to the spine of the carabiner.

http://guidetricksforclimbers.com/cloveHitch.art.html

"The clove is a useful knot that has limitations, but so do many of the techniques and equipment that we use in climbing and guiding. It is not substantially weaker than other commonly used knots, but extra care must be applied to its use. It must be tightened down, and it must be oriented with the load on the correct side (LOAD OPPOSITE GATED SIDE)."

"There is little point in having a bombproof anchor if the attachment point to it is the weakest point of the system - it was better to use an alternative knot in all circumstances or consider 2 cloves and 2 biners."

Burley

[*Chris*]

Hey Burley... welcome to the interweb
Agreed on all points... all knots must be properly cinched and dressed before use... but perhaps particularly the clove. The rig I've been playing with lately when I need adjustable point is:

1) Ballpark estimate the rope I need, then add another arm length or two
2) Fix rope to anchor with 8-on-a-bight
3) Clove onto belay loop of harness

All the adjustability you need + backup of clove hitch + adjustable point always with you in the event you're more than arms length away from anchor (like say for Stairway at Sunnyside). Cost = 1 extra locker.

I dunno... anyone got a better system?

p.s. 100 posts... what do I win?

[STeveA]

I think the daisy chain issue is another good example of the need to know your physics in climbing. I used to manuafacture daisy chains and tested them on a regular basis. When used correctly there is no way under normal climbing conditions that a daisy chain would fail. They are so close to being as strong as a sling that it makes no difference. However, they were intended to be used with 2 carabiners. One at the top and one on the loop system. Used in this manner the system stays intact if a bar tack fails.

As for the clove hitch. I have used this knot for over 30 years and have never seen it fail. There is no doubt that it is not as strong as other alternatives, however it is easy to adjust and thus minimize any slack in the system. Other knots require more time to get just right. This is time you might not have, or might not bother to take. At the end of the day, a tight system with a weaker knot may well be better than a loose belay with a good knot. Again, you need to know the physics and make the correct judgement call.

[martha]

Hey Burley... welcome to the interweb
Agreed on all points... all knots must be properly cinched and dressed before use... but perhaps particularly the clove. The rig I've been playing with lately when I need adjustable point is:

1) Ballpark estimate the rope I need, then add another arm length or two
2) Fix rope to anchor with 8-on-a-bight
3) Clove onto belay loop of harness

All the adjustability you need + backup of clove hitch + adjustable point always with you in the event you're more than arms length away from anchor (like say for Stairway at Sunnyside). Cost = 1 extra locker.

I dunno... anyone got a better system?

p.s. 100 posts... what do I win?

EUREKA! Man, how many times have I been too far from the clove hitch to adjust it without moving away from my scenic view and comfortably weighted anchor. Norfolk... that is golden. It will be my new method!

[Murph]

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html

[Adam]

they need to make the loops of a daisy differently. instead of just two parallel pieces of webbing stitched every 3 inches, the strand that makes the loops should double back on itself before starting the next loop. then if the stitching failed the biner would automagically be securely clipped.

[chossmonkey]

they need to make the loops of a daisy differently. instead of just two parallel pieces of webbing stitched every 3 inches, the strand that makes the loops should double back on itself before starting the next loop. then if the stitching failed the biner would automatically be securely clipped.

It seems like that would add a lot of bulk. As they are they work fine for what they are intended, aiding.

I don't understand peoples obsession with daisy chains for anchoring. There are so many better ways to attach ones self to an anchor that don't use an extra piece of gear that is only used for one specialized thing.

[Adam]

It seems like that would add a lot of bulk. As they are they work fine for what they are intended, aiding.

I don't understand peoples obsession with daisy chains for anchoring. There are so many better ways to attach ones self to an anchor that don't use an extra piece of gear that is only used for one specialized thing.

yah might add some bulk, but would make it safer -- for aiding OR anchoring.

i think the fact that it's nice to not worry about needing an extra draw or having to tie in with the rope is the attraction to the daisy. it's quick and easy.

[mathieu]

I'll admit, I still have a daisy chain and use it frequently. Reason I still use it: it makes rapping off a multi pitch route much less of a clusterfck if everyone just gets to the station and anchors in with their daisy (or sling) to a powerpoint. The clove hitch is great when going up and your tied to the rope already but going down, you don't have the rope tied in anymore.