kyoto

[The Teth]

Hey, if they had banned dragging (for fish...scallops might be a different matter) it would have hurt the big corporations and a small amount of fisherman, but 95% of fishermen would not have been effected and there would still be cod. The problem was that dragging killed the fishes food. Long lining and the inshore fishery would have been much more sustainable.

[Fred]

I didn't mean we should save the humans. I meant that people who say they want to save the environment should be saying they want to save humans. Because it's not the environment they want to save it's their life. Every human is selfish by nature. Saving the environment is for their own benefit.

although i agree humans are selfish by nature, using that as an excuse is a cop out.

of course saving the environment will benefit us. use whatever reason you need to to give yourself motivation.

sorry I missed this post earlier.

Refer to my previous post about fundamental philosophical theories. So when I say it is selfish to want to save the environment I mean... One must ask themselfes "why am I saving the environment?" Better water, better air, better food suplies, better LIFE (sorry for the caps Mitch)

I'm not looking for an excuse to avoid doing my part if that is what you think. I do plenty We are having a discussion on Kyoto protocol aren't we? and you asked us if we thought it was a good idea no? So my strange explanation to your original search for feedback on this topic is really all that it is... an explanation not a cop out. I think I was merely trying to express my opinion from my view outside the box. I'm sorry if you don't share that view but I would appreciate if you didn't tell me I'm coping out when we are simply trying to continue this adult discussion which you started.

I respect yours and others' views and why you chose to walk to work to do your part. I think I even expressed that in some of my posts (perhaps not literaly). Thus my messages have been nothing more than further thinking about this Kyoto protocol... not a self explanation or cop out pass to avoid picking up my garbage or starting my fires with diesel fuel.

Peace.
Live long and prosper.

[martha]

Hey, if they had banned dragging (for fish...scallops might be a different matter) it would have hurt the big corporations and a small amount of fisherman, but 95% of fishermen would not have been effected and there would still be cod. The problem was that dragging killed the fishes food. Long lining and the inshore fishery would have been much more sustainable.

the 'big corporations' only came in to play in the last 20 years. the smaller fisherman have been offshore cod fishing for hundreds of years. lets not place all the blame on the corporations.
Blame can't really be placed on either. a hundred years ago, no one thought that we'd deplete the cod stocks. And once we found out or realized it, you can't just pull the lively hood away from thousands of families?

Baby steps. and we are making them. quotas are a good step in the rigth direction.


I really don't want to get into this one. being from a fishing family and all. I start fighting dirty!!

okay..back to kyoto.....

[Fred]

Cod is gross anyways...

Lets put two of them in a tank at the zoo next to the Panda Bear exhibit and clean out the rest of them.

Explanation Flow Chart:

1. I've completed grade 12 (yes: procede to question 10 No: proceed to qustion 2)
2. I didn't complete grade 12 because my IQ is subpar (yes: proceede to question 3 NO: proceed to question 9)
3. I smoked cigarettes during grade school (yes: proceed to question 4 no: proceed to question 7)
4. I'm not catching where this is going (yes: proceed to question 5 no: proceed to question 10)
5. collect 200 and go to question 6
6. Roll a 6 and proceed to question 10
7. I don't understand how this flow chart works (proceed to question 10)
9. I didn't complete grade 12 because I'm too smart for school (yes: proceed to question 10 no: proceed to question 2)
10. I realized from the start that this flow chart was a joke (yes: proceed to question 11 no: proceede to question 2)
11. I understand the above statement is a joke and realize Fred absolutely loves Panda Bears and especially Cod.

You'll notice that if you answered No to question 10 you get caught in a viscious loop as you should.

Disclaimer: Subroutine not tested on real subjects.

Nice!!! That just took me from 4:30 to quiting time in no time.
see yas.

[Guest]

Baby steps. and we are making them. quotas are a good step in the rigth direction.

quotas make it harder for regular fisherman to persist b/c it is much easier for big coporations to pay the millions of dollars that these quotas cost.

i think big corporations ARE one of the roots of the problems in the fisheries. not just canadians corps... but all the fleets of factory ships out there that pull as much out of the waters as fast and efficiently as possible.

i agree with teth that if it had been left to inshore and longlining that the banks (and seas in general) wouldn't be in nearly the mess that it is.

and regardless of whether you will take offense cara, dragging IS BAD. anyone who SCUBA dives and has come across a dragging swath can see just how devastating it is. it is like clearcutting the bottom of the oceans. except loggers usually tend to leave the odd tree to reseed the area. nothing is left behind after a dragger goes by.

just because dragging provided food for yours and many other families isn't a reason to allow it to go on. there ARE other ways.... but like teth pointed out in making it easier to follow the 'right' way by making the 'wrong' way too costly, there simply haven't been enough pressures from legislation and enforcement to push the scallop fishery to find other means.

[granite_grrl]

Didn't get a chance to read every post in detail, but I wanted to add this little bit.

I just finished an interesting book by Daniel Quinn called Story of B. In it it makes that point that this world isn't going to be saved by programs, it's going to be saved by a change in the way people think.

There are a ton of other things that the book discusses, and I wish I could do them justice in this post, but I doubt I can. I'll just recomend it here. I don't know if I totally agree with everything in it, but its a great book for a new view on things

Any one else read it?

Rebecca

[Guest]

has been a few years, but yes, have read that, as well as ishmael and my ishmael.

i agree that it is going to take more than 'programs', but until someone figures out how to change collective perception, programs are all we've got.

have you read ishmael g_grrl? another must read.

[Guest]

http://www.ishmael.com/index1.cfm

[The Mitt]

What does this beautiful flowers have to do with climbing? If a moderator was to do his/her job this whole thread would be locked. Don't you think we have gone away from the main topic at hand, I mean jeez flaming people was more interesting reading than thoughts from abunch of people trying to sound enlightened. God I'm going to puke!!! I feel much dumber having read this thread!!!


Sean

[Guest]

I feel much dumber having read this thread!!!

you are very quick to judge sean. try reading the book before casting your judgement on it. you never know, you might learn something and then you wouldn't feel so dumb.

[martha]

and regardless of whether you will take offense cara, dragging IS BAD. anyone who SCUBA dives and has come across a dragging swath can see just how devastating it is. it is like clearcutting the bottom of the oceans. except loggers usually tend to leave the odd tree to reseed the area. nothing is left behind after a dragger goes by.

just because dragging provided food for yours and many other families isn't a reason to allow it to go on. there ARE other ways.... but like teth pointed out in making it easier to follow the 'right' way by making the 'wrong' way too costly, there simply haven't been enough pressures from legislation and enforcement to push the scallop fishery to find other means.

I have never said that dragging isn't bad for the bottom of the ocean. Perhaps there is a better way. So maybe we should increase taxes so the government can help fund the research necessary to come up with these methods, make them feasible for the familys who rely on fishing for their income and help them implement them on their boats and in their lives.

however, You can not cut fishermen or farmers or miners or foresters out cold turkey. Like...."I'm sorry Mr. fisherman, what you do is BAD for the environment, you have to stop now, find a better way to do what you are doing or do something else". That won't work. and won't happen.

Fishermen, just like all others, are reasonable people, and understand that what they do is harmful to the ocean floor. But they also have children to feed and communities to contribute to. WE SHOULD be helping to find a better way Adam. But it isn't as easy as saying stop doing it that old way, and do it this new way. There are hundreds of thousands of families in Canada who rely on the oceans whether they are small self employed fishermen or if they are working for the Big Corporations.

[martha]

Didn't get a chance to read every post in detail, but I wanted to add this little bit.

I just finished an interesting book by Daniel Quinn called Story of B. In it it makes that point that this world isn't going to be saved by programs, it's going to be saved by a change in the way people think.

There are a ton of other things that the book discusses, and I wish I could do them justice in this post, but I doubt I can. I'll just recomend it here. I don't know if I totally agree with everything in it, but its a great book for a new view on things

Any one else read it?

Rebecca

I've read Ishmael and plan to read it again soon. It was a great book and talks about exactly what we are discussing. Leaving and Taking.

[rendog]

What does this beautiful flowers have to do with climbing? If a moderator was to do his/her job this whole thread would be locked. Don't you think we have gone away from the main topic at hand, I mean jeez flaming people was more interesting reading than thoughts from abunch of people trying to sound enlightened. God I'm going to puke!!! I feel much dumber having read this thread!!!


Sean

Sean...

General Chat is just that...general...

it doesn't neccessarily have to do with climbing. I let this forum go a bit more than the other ones simply because as climbers not everything that we talk about has to do with climbing. Some people that climb are very involved in Politics for example, and would like to have a place to discuss it.

unless it is a violation of the T.O.U. then it will stay up. If you don't like a thread for whatever reason, don't read it

[Guest]

pearl jam doesn't think its dumb.

[The Mitt]

Ok, I'm sorry. I was on the understanding that general chat meant general chat about climbing. So things things like abortion, religion, politics, whos sleeping with who. All of that goes here?.... cool. Guess I will just stick with the NS section then (that one is about climbing right?). Maybe adam was right to make posts here about what was happening in his personal life (just as long as he did not violate the TOS).

Sean

[granite_grrl]

Marth, Adam - I have read both Ishmeal and My Ishmeal too, but the last time was years ago. I actually picked up my copy of Story of B again because of a disscussion on RC.com. Great books.

Rebecca

[Guest]

its been 3 or 4 years for me too. think i'm going to reread them now. need a refresher.

[The Teth]

the 'big corporations' only came in to play in the last 20 years. the smaller fisherman have been offshore cod fishing for hundreds of years. lets not place all the blame on the corporations.
Blame can't really be placed on either. a hundred years ago, no one thought that we'd deplete the cod stocks. And once we found out or realized it, you can't just pull the lively hood away from thousands of families?

100 years ago we did not have the technology to deplete the fish stocks. Efficiency in harvesting is not such a good thing if your goal is a sustainable industry.

however, You can not cut fishermen or farmers or miners or foresters out cold turkey. Like...."I'm sorry Mr. fisherman, what you do is BAD for the environment, you have to stop now, find a better way to do what you are doing or do something else". That won't work. and won't happen.

No, I suppose it is better to wait and say “Sorry Mr. Fisherman, but there are no fish left. Guess you will have to find something else to do.” That already has happed. It is what all the fishermen I grew up with have been told. I guess it is lucky for the scallop fishermen that there are still scallops left, because there is not much else to catch out there. The die hards who have not given up an moved to the city to find work are trying to find markets for the stuff they used to through back.

... And Mit...why would a military type like you even bother to read a thread with “Kyoto” in the subject line?

[Guest]

No, I suppose it is better to wait and say “Sorry Mr. Fisherman, but there are no fish left. Guess you will have to find something else to do.” That already has happed.

well put teth.

[The Teth]

Thanks Adam.

Being a realist however, I think I should be fair to Carra and try to be more objective.

The thing I am most strongly against is dragging when there is a viable alterative. Dragging for fish is unsustainable as it catches too high a percentage of the fish present and also kills off their food supply so that any that avoid the net are underfed and vulnerable. The fish stocks can’t rebound until their food rebounds, and their food can’t rebound until their food’s food rebounds. Now with fish you have an alterative. Hooks and stationary nets usually only catch a certain size of fish. If it is too small a fish it will not get the hook in its mouth, or will swim through the weave of the net. For fish, banning dragging only results in a reduction in short-term profits which would partly translate into a higher market value and would have a manageable impact on the fishing industry.

To be fair to Carra though, I do not see a good alterative for scallops. I suppose you could build robot harvesters, but scallops would have to be worth more than caviar to make that economically viable. I am sure they are looking into ways of farming scallops, but there are still a lot of kinks which need to be worked out with fish farming, and I am not aware of any commercial scollop farms yet.

I was in favour of banning dragging for fish 15 years ago. I still wish they had done it then, and then looked at reducing and looking for alternatives for scallop dragging, so that maybe we would have some options now. It is a little late now though. If do now what we should have done in the 1980s it will still be a hundred years before the fish stocks get back to where the where when I was young. If we don’t do anything, we might have to wait for new species to evolve.

All this talk about fish must be bloody boring for mathieu out in the Alberta Oil Patch.

[Guest]

I do not see a good alterative for scallops.

here's an alternative... let divers harvest them. divers can only dive so deep (safely) and so would not be harvesting the deeper populations.

so they'll cost more... big deal. better to have them exist and cost more and have their harvest method not destroy everything else than have cheap scallops.

[Guest]

furthermore, all the fishermen who have their draggers taken away from them can learn to dive for a living...

and a single dragger could probably harvest 10 times the number of scallop per person involved vs having to dive for them. so look at the job creation possibilities!

[martha]

furthermore, all the fishermen who have their draggers taken away from them can learn to dive for a living...

and a single dragger could probably harvest 10 times the number of scallop per person involved vs having to dive for them. so look at the job creation possibilities!

most of the fishermen I know, ironically, can't swim. teaching them to dive is laughable

Any sort of system will be most effective if grandfathered in. Unfortunately, the gradual approach may take too long to do any good.

I am very torn on this subject, as my father and two of my brothers are fishermen. My father has retired, and sold his boat and quota, but fished for 52 years. One of my brothers owns his own boat and quota, and the other is a factory boss for Deep Sea Trawlers ( a clearwater owned company) on a factory trawler. Everything that my immediate family (mom, dad and us 6 kids and two of my brothers wives and children) has is because of the scallop fishery, and though I know dragging is very harmful to the ocean floor, and we are in some cases, over fishing....I can't help but want to sit on the side of the fishermen....to help find a better way. A viable option. and one that is more realistic than teaching all the draggers and their crew to dive.

[Fred]

and one that is more realistic than teaching all the draggers and their crew to dive.

well put Martha

[Guest]

yah, cause fishermen are too dumb and out of shape to learn how to swim...

there's nothing unrealistic about people learning to dive. and besides, the divers would still need people to tend the boats they were diving from.

[Fred]

I'd say it's about as realistic as asking potato farmers to hand pick potatoes wouldn't you say?

[martha]

yah, cause fishermen are too dumb and out of shape to learn how to swim...

there's nothing unrealistic about people learning to dive. and besides, the divers would still need people to tend the boats they were diving from.

Do you really think it is realistic to teach over 10,000 people to dive? Because there are at least that many scallop fishermen in Nova Scotia if not more. Do you think they will dive from multi million dollar scallop draggers? Will this be enough income to pay the bills on the equipment they have and the licenses and quota they hold?

And will they make enough money to sustain their families? That is doubtful. What about those who are support staff to those fishermen? the cooks and mechanics who work on the factory boats? The accountants who look after the business side of all the self employed fishermen?

.....the store owners, restaurant workers and gas pump attendants who serve these people in the communities who thrive on the fishery? The gas stations in small towns who make the 70% of their income from serving fishermen and their boats fuel needs..are you going to teach them to dive also?

What about the beauty salons who make their money from the wives and daughters of fishermen? The carpenters and plumbers who earn their biggest income from building new houses or repairing old ones of fishermen who have enough money to feed into the community economy. are you going to teach all of them to dive too?

[Guest]

holy f&ck you guys sure like to ask dumb questions...

my suggestion was just that a "suggestion", a possible solution.

would EVERYONE have to learn to dive? of course not... did everyone in newfoundland have to learn a new trade when they shut down the cod fishery? no, the people who WERE fishing had to find other work, and everyone who depended on their money continued doing what they were doing.

you guys are either dumber than you look or like to let people think you are.

if potatoe farmers discovered that their harvesters were destroying the land and the survival of the very crop they depended on, then yah, i'd say they'd be willing to pick them by hand.

[martha]

\
if potatoe farmers discovered that their harvesters were destroying the land and the survival of the very crop they depended on, then yah, i'd say they'd be willing to pick them by hand.

destroy the land and survival that the scallops grow on? Not at all Adam. not at all. Inshore Scallop fishing in the Bay of Fundy has been done on the same grounds year after year since 1917. The scallop are still thriving and they are landing as big of crops now as they ever were. To add to that, areas where lobster cohabitate, they are also thriving and the lobster fishery has had 3 record years.

The majority of scallop fishing is done at about 300 ft, and if I am not mistaken, that is a little on the deep side for diving safely.

There have been video studies done that show certain bottom types don't get damaged by dragging. That at over 300 ft, there is very little light, so very little if any vegitation to be damaged. In some of these video studies, it has shown that in as little as 48 hours in some areas, there is no evidence that there has been a dragger there. Most bottom for dragging is rocky and very rough.

Anywhere that there is coral ie: in the channel between browns and georges bank, and on certain areas on georges, Scallop dragging is NOT ALLOWED.

There are few places where divers go that scallop boats fish. they are on the inshore of NB some around Grand Manan and near Passemoquody. There is also an area in the Annapolis Basin and in St. Marys where divers and draggers both go. In these areas, the water is shallow enough that there is vegitation and I'm sure that the ground DOES become wrecked. However, it isn't hurting the scallops and their abitlity to survive. Ask any dragger how his landings have been in the last 10 years. As for other fish/vegitation I don't know.

The increased landings in the last 10-15 years are not due to technology advances either. the draggs they use now are the same design and build that they were 15 years ago.

again, I'm a little attached to this topic.

[Guest]

gimme references