route discrepency Gallery Wall

[Fred]

CURE FOR A.D.D. 5.11 75’/TR/T
FA: C.Richardson 1997
Climbs overhangs right of “Widow Maker”. Finish at ledge.


A NEVER ENDING STORY 5.11c 80'/S(8 ) /R(2)
FFA: J.P.Graham 2003
Follow the bolted line up an overhanging corner in the middle of Gallery Wall to finish at bolted rap station on nice ledge.
Note: This route is wet most of the year but can often be climbed by avoiding the wet spots. This is an awesome route.

Are these two routes the same???

[motanb]

yes they are fred..

cheers,
thomas

[Fred]

ok.

I will add Cory's FA to the Never Ending Story description. You were there for the FA as well Tom?

[martha]

Did Cory abandon this line thus allowing JP to re-name it?

I think that both names and all information should be kept for historical purposes.

[Fred]

Tom can correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that he and Cory were the first two to climb it during the time they developed the Gallery Wall. The route info that I have for Gallery Wall was from Cory a number of years ago and is very vague. Hence, why I did not even realise that these two lines were in fact the same until I started going through the guidebook corrections. Ulysse then bolted (I thought with Tom's concent) the route several years later. Since the route was always wet and Ulysse and Tom both moved away the bolted project remained unclimbed for some time. Then one summer JP was visiting the area and climbed the route. No one knew at the time that JP had climbed the route. The next season, John Bowles climbed the route and decided to name it "The Start to A Never Ending Story" but come to find out he did not have the FFA. So when he contacted JP, they agreed to call the route "A Never Ending Story" instead of the longwinded name John gave it. hehe.

The debate is to who gets to name the route. The FA or the FFA? I am indifferent as to which name you guys want to call it. The ethics in Welsford have usualy been to credit FA ascents wheter on AID, TR, etc. However, most other areas claim route names once the FFA has been established.

Should I name it Cure for A.D.D. or Never Ending Story

[john]

I think everyone generally agrees that a TR left for a long time (long differing regioanlly) can be lead via sport, trad, mixed etc. and the FFA claimed. IN the strict sense a TR is a FA but many areas dont consider it the FA, only routes lead via aid or free (mixed, trad or sport) is considered FA, with a free lead (either mixed sport or trad) being further designated FFA. Some areas also have a FTR designation (dumb?). In welsford many TR's do get named and most people typically respect the TR name once it goes free, but there are some routes renamed once they get a FFA. I think its bad form if someone really cares about the FA top rope to rename it, but personally anythng I climb TR is fair game to be lead and renamed wether its on aid or free. I think some routes are not worthy of a lead and should remain TR only, ie. squeeze jobs, extensions and varriations, but really a TR is not good form therefore, I think the FFA gets to name it. But again for me its not worth disrespecting the top roper if they care. I think top rope routes can be dumb since some areas people hang a TR off every tree name all the routes on the wall but are to lazy to develop the cliff properly. So eventually someone comes along cleans it, bolts it (if necessary) takes the time to lead it then renames it. I think thats fine. If it were my TR I wouldnt care. Keep the peace.

[martha]

I think top rope routes can be dumb since some areas people hang a TR off every tree name all the routes on the wall but are to lazy to develop the cliff properly.

like the squeeze job between dry toolers and goonie goo goo on waterfall?!?

okay.. I still think that the little blurb you just wrote Fred... should go in the guide book for history's sake. it is worth the mention.
As for the route name...I would email Cory and find out his take on the situation. he is around now.

cheers.

[STeveA]

Just for info, this route was climbed many times before it was bolted. It was a well established route even though it is often wet and full of spiders. I climbed it shortly after Cory put the route up, and I know several others also climbed the route.

Keep in mind that some of the TRs in Welsford were established before the use of bolts and thus you either X-rated a route, didn't climb it, or top roped it. Which one of these is the better choice is a good point of beer and debates.

It was always the opinion of the earlier climbers that saying a top rope ascent did not count was like saying that sex with a condom did not count, and that you were still a virgin.

[martha]

It was a well established route even though it is often wet and full of spiders.

I'll say!! some Damn BIG ones too. makes me want to carry hexes on sport routes!

It was always the opinion of the earlier climbers that saying a top rope ascent did not count was like saying that sex with a condom did not count, and that you were still a virgin.

[cory]

I like Martha's idea of including the long-winded story in the guide. I guess you still need to decide which name to use as the heading, and in the indices (indexes). I can' t one-up SteveA's insightful condom remark Is there one name which is in COMMON use?

This reminds me of snakepeel/momentary lapse of grace. Apparently the classic Snakepeel 5.7 was FFA'd long before anything else on Joe's Garage, and named Momentary Lapse of Grace for the one technical crux move. Since there was nothing established nearby there wasn't a lot of traffic. Vegetation and a reptile moved in to the crack. The latter left his molted skin, which was removed during the second cleaning, and was assumed to be a FA which was appropriately (if not mistakenly) named Snakepeel.

When Karel and others did so much work on Joe's Garage, and the guidebook update came, out Snakepeel was the name printed and this came into common use.

I may have some of this wrong and I don't know the names of those involved, but SteveA can comment as I learned this from him.

Cory (not Richardson)

[Fred]

The same thing happened with Gastrocolic Reflex (spell?) which was first climbed by Marc LeBlanc a number of years ago yet never cleaned. When I landed on this route, it had aboslutely no trace of previous travel and I had never heard of it in any guiebook so I decided to clean the line and called it Pharao Fawcet.

I'm sure there are many others.

[STeveA]

You are Correct about Snakepeel Cory. I think a little story in the guidebook would adequately cover the problem with any names. We all know that The Upper Tier is really called Pete and Steve's most Excellent Sport Climbing area, but I believe a few people use a different name, and ultimately it is no big deal. We are more interested in the climbing, and the rest is good for discussing over beers. Although, I am sure the next guidebook will use the correct (first) name for this area, eh Fred!

P.S. The main reason why the hut on top of the cliff fell into disuse was because it was too hard to carry a 24 of beer up to it. The L-Shape campground was a more level approach.

[martha]

P.S. The main reason why the hut on top of the cliff fell into disuse was because it was too hard to carry a 24 of beer up to it. The L-Shape campground was a more level approach.

not to mention that is a hell of a long hike to take a 'lady' on to spend a few hours (or minutes) in that cabin.

Remember Fred Doucette telling us the main reason for rock school and climbing was to pick up?!

[Fred]

Although, I am sure the next guidebook will use the correct (first) name for this area, eh Fred!

hehe

we'll see. I like the name Upper Tier better myself since I can say it one sentence but I will certainly bring it up in the History section.

[Joe]

I firmly agree with John regarding FFAs having priority over TRs. If someone cleans and bolts a line, then climbs the FFA, then he should be able to name the route. Same goes for a new trad line, or a new ice line. TRs, without further development, should not be given much credit. For example, the line now called Goonie Goo Goo had been TRed by several people over the years, including myself. But no one bothered to develop it before Fred, so he should get full credit for the climb (no matter how silly the name!). Same for Bird of Fire; several earlier TRs, but Ulysse was the first to lead it, so it's his. Following this ethic would place responsibility on the first ascentioninst to fully develop a new route proir to claiming ownership by assigning a route name.

[Fred]

I had plans to name a whole circuit of routes as:

Ga-Ga-Goo-Goo
Goo-Goo-Ga-Ga
Boo-Boo-Ga-Ga

[Richard Eh!]

Fred, looks like you now have TWO women telling you what to do!!!