Guidebook Printing

[Fred]

Hey all.

I'm looking for some advice on what you all like in a guidebook and also some help on where I should have my printing etc done. The old guidebook was a simple photocopied guts and cardstock cover with a coild binding. Relatively simple but not as cheap as you may think in comparison to printed books like Ghislain's BHFX or Cassidy's NS Rock.

Do you guys prefer the coil binding over the bound books? It's more expensive but seems to lay flat better. I have not had a problem with pages tearing out but the covers have been tearing on some of them. What if we kept the same set-up but with a heftier cover? Is the paper ok? I like the idea of the glossy paper for the guts but I don't know how well it would do with the coil binding.

Cassidy, who published the NS Rock guidebook? Would you recommend taking this route?

So far my most cost effective method is to take the same route Zig did with the HFX guidebook.

you input is much appreciated

[The Mitt]

I like the coiled better, but I like the actual pages on Sean C's better. If that makes sense. The NS Guide pages rappel water better.

Mitt

[Fred]

Yeah I'd like to have that kind of glossy paper with a thick almost plastic cover and then same coil I used on the last Welsford guidebook. That would be ideal.

[Fred]

I just got off the phone with Hignell http://www.hignell.mb.ca/ they are the same people who did Zig's BHFX book.

They can do coil binding with glossy paper guts and laminated glossy cover. Sounds like what I am looking for. I'll have to wait and see what the quote comes in at.

[granite_grrl]

If we're going to have a guidebook format wishlist I will also say that I like a smaller book (height and width, not depth). The size of Cassidy's NS guide is nice, or something the size of William's Gunks guide. Fits in a pack nicely.

Never used a book with a coil binding, but a lot of people seem to like them.

You ever consider getting stores like MEC to carry the guide? I have always wanted to go back to Welsford and climb there again, and being able to pick up a copy locally would be great so I can get some inspiration to head out East for climbing.

[*Chris*]

Fred,

I've used many styles of field guides (for activities other than climbing) and by far my favorite characteristics are:

1: Plastic covers - super durable... they prevent tearing of inside pages without having to invest in better paper for the bulk of the guide.

2: 3-ring binder style - allows you to remove all but the pages you'll need for the given day to make the book smaller and to prevent damage to what you wont use. (for example... I might just bring my topos and guides for L-shape and Exfoliated and leave all the rest at home) Removable pages are awesome!

3: Small in dimension - for obvious reasons mentioned above.

I find water-resistant papers are not a huge deal as I keep my books in ziploc bags anyway. I can show example if you wish. Hope this helps.

[martha]

2: 3-ring binder style - allows you to remove all but the pages you'll need for the given day to make the book smaller and to prevent damage to what you wont use. (for example... I might just bring my topos and guides for L-shape and Exfoliated and leave all the rest at home) Removable pages are awesome!

What a damn fine idea!

[granite_grrl]

2: 3-ring binder style - allows you to remove all but the pages you'll need for the given day to make the book smaller and to prevent damage to what you wont use. (for example... I might just bring my topos and guides for L-shape and Exfoliated and leave all the rest at home) Removable pages are awesome!

What a damn fine idea!

Depends who you are. I know that I'm unorganized myself that I'd end up loosong pages. And I'd probobly end up ruining the pages I took out of the binder without its protective cover.

But it might be a good idea for massive areas, or long multi pitch climbs. The new Red Rocks book seems nice, but I did find it to be a large book to tote along, esp if you were going in for only one climb.

[Fred]

personaly I prefer the full tight coil. It will either be a tight coil or book bound. Plus, if the pages can be removed it makes it too easy to feed through a photocopier. You've gota think business here too.

The gloss paper will only be used if it's not increadibly expensive and if it is resistant to tear at the coil.

I'm trying to find a way to get a plastic cover print job. Anyone have any ideas? I don't mean cardboard laminated with plastic but rather some form of harder thin plastic.

Is the size of the current book too big? It makes it very simple since it is exactly 1/2 of an 8.5x11. You end up wasting more paper and money if you go to smaller books. Personaly I don't find it that big. Fits nice in top pouch of pack in a ziplock as Chris mentioned.

[Fred]

if all goes well I am still aiming to add all of climbing in NB in one book which will cover the following areas:

- Cochrane Lane
- Eagle Rock
- Bald Peak
- Sunnyside
- Greenlaw
- Chickahominy
- Gondola Point
- Hampton Marsh
- Other

my plan is to find a company that can print colour custom tab stickers. These would be included with your book as an insert and you would stick them on when you buy the book.

PS. START SENDING ME YOUR PHOTOS NOW. Only good ones please. hehe

[Fred]

I've got it.

http://www.sticker.com/laser-labels.html

I order some of these sheets in different colors then run them off my laser printer at home. Then I can stick them on all the books myself.

[*Chris*]

Plus, if the pages can be removed it makes it too easy to feed through a photocopier. You've gota think business here too.

Granted, I wasn't thinking of that.

I'm trying to find a way to get a plastic cover print job. Anyone have any ideas? I don't mean cardboard laminated with plastic but rather some form of harder thin plastic.

Hard thin plastic would be great.

Is the size of the current book too big?

I personally find it good but I'd be shy to go any bigger.

[Andrew]

Fred,

I like your latest idea. The same size as current guide book, with tight coil binding, but with gloss/semi gloss contents but the covers should be plastic covered cardstock so they don't rip off so easily.

One thing I would like to add, I'm sure you've thought of it, but...

I would like to see some extra pages for the user to addd in new routes. If those blank pages could be templates (not really blank) so you can make it look quite original, but simply pen/pensiled in.

Also, some regular blank pages for notes at the back.

Climb on.

[Andrew]

Also, maybe some tick box's on each route (maybe just at the index at the back?)

Then you can check off what routes you've done.

Im not sure, is that tacky? I saw it in the clifton guidebook.

Maybe once there's some more ideas thrown around, we can do a vote?

Alright, last msg, i swear!

[Fred]

I would like to see some extra pages for the user to addd in new routes. If those blank pages could be templates (not really blank) so you can make it look quite original, but simply pen/pensiled in.

do you mean like a fill in the blanks section?

Route Name:
Grade:
Length:
FA:
FFA:
Description:

[Fred]

Also, maybe some tick box's on each route (maybe just at the index at the back?)

Yup. I have already thought of that and I am including it in the next edition. small check box for TR and small check box for Free

[granite_grrl]

Also, maybe some tick box's on each route (maybe just at the index at the back?)

Yup. I have already thought of that and I am including it in the next edition. small check box for TR and small check box for Free

What about redpoint and onsight?

[Fred]

What about redpoint and onsight?

hhehe oof! but then we have pink-point, aid, etc.

It's nice to record that you have been on a route for TR ground-up no falls. My goal is to lead all routes clean but I also like to keep track of the ones I have worked.

[Andrew]

Fred,

You got it.

Andrew

I would like to see some extra pages for the user to addd in new routes. If those blank pages could be templates (not really blank) so you can make it look quite original, but simply pen/pensiled in.

do you mean like a fill in the blanks section?

Route Name:
Grade:
Length:
FA:
FFA:
Description:

[granite_grrl]

What about redpoint and onsight?

hhehe oof! but then we have pink-point, aid, etc.

It's nice to record that you have been on a route for TR ground-up no falls. My goal is to lead all routes clean but I also like to keep track of the ones I have worked.

I keep my own climbing journal and don't typically write in my guide books. So I guess I was just being the devils-advocate.

I was looking through some of our guide books. You could go really fancy like the rockfax books, or like the new RRG guide book with the flashy photos, but what makes a really good ruide book is the quality of the information in it.

One of the worst we have is the new Devils Tower book. Looks amazing, but hard to read the topos and leave out information like pitch length (good to know if you need one rope or two to get down). Also left out all the aid routes, etc.

The best book I've used is William's Gunks guide. Good description of each pitch, gear ratings, amusing anctidotes, lots of history. And I admire the guy for actually reclimbing every single route in the book before he wrote it. But it looks like one of the simplist books on our shelf.

In the end, its all about the work put into it and how good the info is.

[NB_Gecko]

I like the wire bindings on the book. They last.

Don't forget the Kingston Penninsula for routes.

[Richard Eh!]

Seeing as how the pages are numbered, what about a simple index up front listing the page number for the maps, photos, the start of each area i.e. Cave Area. Border Wall, Simpson's.....start page of "listings by grade", etc.

[The Mitt]

For welsford I would like to see better Topos, photos maybe. I really like how the white mountain guide is, great pictures. even if it can be confusing at times.

Mitt

[Fred]

Don't forget the Kingston Penninsula for routes.

- Cochrane Lane
- Eagle Rock
- Bald Peak
- Sunnyside
- Greenlaw
- Chickahominy
- Gondola Point
- Hampton Marsh
- Other

[Fred]

Seeing as how the pages are numbered, what about a simple index up front listing the page number for the maps, photos, the start of each area i.e. Cave Area. Border Wall, Simpson's.....start page of "listings by grade", etc.

good point. I think an index will be mandatory especialy once I include all the other cliffs.

[Fred]

For welsford I would like to see better Topos, photos maybe. I really like how the white mountain guide is, great pictures. even if it can be confusing at times.

Mitt

the topos for Welsford may not be Picasos but they are certainly effective. Some areas don't have topos yet but the ones that do seem to work quite well I find.

A good topo beats any photo hands down in my opinion. You never seem to be looking at the cliff from the same angle than the photo was taken.

I hope to draw Adobe Illustrator topos similar to RockFax and DrTopo but this will be a big job. I'll try to fee you a sample when I get going on it. So far I have all routes for Welsford and Geenlaw typed up and moving on to the other areas. Topos and photos in the end.

[Andrew]

Fred,

For fear of being to technical correct...

The climbing spot that is being referred to as "Gondola Point" is, in fact, the Kingston Penninsula. I think that should be corrected. I really don't understand why it was evered called gondola point. I grew up in Gondola Point, so I'm sure of this.

Take care.

Andrew

Don't forget the Kingston Penninsula for routes.

- Cochrane Lane
- Eagle Rock
- Bald Peak
- Sunnyside
- Greenlaw
- Chickahominy
- Gondola Point
- Hampton Marsh
- Other

[martha]

I think that is just what Cory Goodman named it. He grew up down there too. perhaps because you can see Gondola point from it?

[Andrew]

Gondola Point is the mainland you can see from the Kingston Penninsula. They run parallel.

Tha climbing spot is 3min Ferry Ride from Gondola Point to the Kingston Penn. Turn left and drive for 30 seconds and your at the clmibing spot (rest-stop dirt).

I think that is just what Cory Goodman named it. He grew up down there too. perhaps because you can see Gondola point from it?

[Shawn B]

My .01 (my .02 is only worth that):
- spend an afternoon with Steve A out in Welsford and have him explain where all the old time routes are. while he himself is an archive, his mind is still pretty sharp
- photos of the cliff with routes please. a combintation of topos and photos with main routes (not all) dotted on the photos work well together (ie. the cathedral and whitehorse guide for north conway or supertopo's red rocks guide). for best pics of the whole cliff go to the very back farmers field past the house towards SJ, you can see pretty much everything.
- correct in-accurate grades and typos in current book
- acknowledge that this guidebook will actually be the 5th (I think) edition guidebook of rock climbing in NB and not the 2nd
- no to removable pages
- not so sure hampton marsh is worth the effort to include it (it really is crappy)
- introduce the 3* system instead of 5
- no need for extra work involved with tabs for different areas
- the need to include fa and ffa info with route description not necessary. if you want to include that info, incorporate that in the back of the book. look how clean jeff butterfield's guide to acadia is without all that extra info after each route and variation. you'd be better to include the tick list boxes after each route than fa info, then it is pertinent info to me. history is important but when i'm looking for route info, give me the info. i'll read the history at home on the throne.