Ethics

[Graham]

Just curious as to how you folks think. I am currently enroled in a Religion and Ecology class and one of the issues we studied was that of native North Americans and their connection to the land. One of the articles we read mentioned the Devils Tower and how is was a sacred mountain for the aborigines tribes in the surrounding area. Every June they hold a ceremony at the base of the mountain, during which climbing is prohibited. Now the ethical question arises in that, the Tribes want to see no climbing done at all, as they regard this as a sacraledge. Meanwhile the climbing community wants to permit climbing year round as they don't see climbing on it as damaging to the mountain( they recently lost a court case in which they appealed the one month ban on climbing the Devils Tower during June.). So I guess I'd just like to know what you folks think?

[Fred]

didn't they hear? that mountain was taken from them a long time ago.

[dcentral]

Why do climbers have a right to be there? That's not really a right it's more of a privilege.

[martha]

I vote number 2.

I don't believe in god or anything else for that matter, but I do believe in Respect.

[granite_grrl]

Its interesting to have stayed out at the Tower for a couple of weeks, plus my husband was out there for a good portion of June.

I guess a big portion of it is the spiritual experience climbers have from the Tower. The days out there were amazing, and with every route we did, and every route that I completed, and with every route that spat me off my respect for the Tower grew and grew. It was just incredible to sit out and look at the wonder of the tower, akin to a religious experience one might say. I wonder about the respect others give climbers for their mighty experiences with the Tower.

I've heard some stuff about the natives and their beliefs of the Tower that don't really jive with what the park service tells you. In fact all of that information has come from the Park Service, I have never heard what the Natives actually think.

There there's the fact that they still allow tourists (encourage tourists) to surround the Tower in June, while they have targeted climbers. I'm sure the Natives would like to close Devils Tower to everyone but them selves, and I'm sure they would if it they owned the land and not the park service.

Its really a complicated issue, muddled by the fact that its a voluntary closure and there are a few user groups that really feel strongly about the Tower. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but its more than climbers being greedy about wanting to climb the Tower, try sitting at the top and watching the sun set and the moon rise and tell me its all about the climbing. Can we really compare the spiritual experiences that different groups and people have?

[thicks]

It is all about respect, in both directions. But I wonder if the votes would fall the same way if we asked some devote Christians and the question was about a group of climbers that want to climb St Paul's Cathedral. (think they would let us bolt it? I am guessing it doesnt take gear well)
Thicks

[granite_grrl]

It is all about respect, in both directions. But I wonder if the votes would fall the same way if we asked some devote Christians and the question was about a group of climbers that want to climb St Paul's Cathedral. (think they would let us bolt it? I am guessing it doesnt take gear well)
Thicks

Its not the same thing as bolting a church, the tower has a completly different significance. You can easily find the story of how the tower was formed, but try to find out the significance of the Tower.

A more acurate translation for the Tower's name is "tower of the lost souls". It was a scary place for the First Nations, they never used to go near it.

People who climbed there long before the management plan was in place would never see prayer bundles or cerimonies there.

What you hear is what the Park Serivice and the First Nations tribes like to tell you, its not the full story.

[Annie]

I would vote number two. It is about respect on all sides, whether you are religious or not. There is a strong historical native connection with the Devil's Tower- connecting to several folklore stories as well as Ceremonies. (for more info, contact the Native Studies Dept. at St. Thomas University, or the Education Dept. at UNB.) Furthermore, the Wyoming native tribes had the opportunity to make it illegal for the tower to be climbed in June, but decided to make it voluntary, hoping for RESPECT for their religion. Even if it is a recent location for native tribes to hold ceremonies, as suggested, shouldn't climbers respect their chosen location? It is only for one month a year, and just as we should respect a church, we should respect the natives' choice to worship there. We should be open-minded and respectful toward those who use the earth to celebrate.

[Annie]

ps. Graham-- who is your professor, and at what university???

[The Mitt]

I picked number 2 as well. Its a mutual respect thing. As long as it is well known in advance that June is a no go (which it is) I will just schedule around it, much like we do for falcon nests.

Mitt

[martha]

We should be open-minded and respectful toward those who use the earth to celebrate.

Cheers to that!!!

[Graham]

For those of you who are interested in the legend surrounding Devils Tower, this is from the Kiowas tribe:

Eight Children were there at play, seven sisters and their brother. Suddenly the boy was struck dumb; he trembled and began to run upon his hands and feet. His fingers became claws; and his body was covered in fur. Directly there was a bear where the boy had been. The sisters were terrified; they ran, and the bear after them. They came to the stump of a great tree, and the tree spoke to them. It bade them climb upon it, and as they did so it began to rise into the air. The bear came to kill them, but they were just beyond its reach. It reared against the tree and scored bark all around with its claws. the seven sisters were borne into the sky, and they became the stars of the big dipper.

In my opinion, I agree that it comes down to respect, but occasionly, we as climbers fail to aknowledge that we have a duty to respect the rock that we use. Often times we get so wrapped up in sending the next new project, that we lose the appreciaton and connectedness we all have experienced. Sometimes we need to let the rock win, allow ourselves to retreat from a climb, not to leave embittered with defeat, but to gain newfound respect for the mountains or cliffs that we spend so much time trying to subdue. With all the new gear that is all but foolproof, we are slowly killing the rocks ability to defeat us, without that defeat, I think, comes the death of the wild, untamed aspect of climbing, the thing that first caused people to place their fate, essentialy in the hands of the rock that they climb.

What does this have to do with the devils rock debate? Well I think that the Native North American tribes have the kind of respect for the earth that we as climbers should demonstrait. Not looking at a mountain as something to be subdued, but as soemthing which deserves our respect. With that sort of attitude, we would find ourselves, as a climbing community, giving back to the rock that has given us so much, and in a much better position to reason with the various tribes surrounding the Tower if they know that we are not just rock jocks looking for the next big thrill.

Well that's just my view, paraphraised and speed typed as I only had a couple minutes to write it. So if it makes no sense, I'm sorry. Anyway, let me know if I'm completly wrong.

Graham

P.S. My prof is Derek Simonds, he teaches my Religion and Ecology class at STU.

[thicks]

Its not the same thing as bolting a church, the tower has a completly different significance.

My comparison stands on very thin ice, I admit. Just trying to draw a contrast between two religious structures that are climbable. The differences are many more than the similarities.

Although, I would love to get a rope length up a couple of churches I have seen…
Thicks

[The Teth]

So the FAA of Divil’s Tower goes to seven sisters of legend. If anyone tops out up there after dark, they should stop, look up at the big dipper, and pay there respects to the first ascensionists.

We climbers have our traditions and our respect for the stone as well. This respect is born from the same origin as the native beliefs, and although in most cases is has not developed to a state of religion, I think the belief structure of some climbers does cross that line. I have read the phrase “what would El Cap think?” several times recently, and it did not always come across as figurative.

Of course, there are a lot of new climbers, yung climbers, or competitive climbers who do not hold the same level of reverence and respect for the rock as the old school climbers often develop. But then, a comparable percentage of Native Americans are devoid of the spirituality practiced by the tribal elders. I expect that some yong Native Americans for whom the legends are only stories, might find they achieve a greater spiritual connection to the place by actually climbing it.

My comments above about Native Spirituality are general. I do not know the level of spirituality of the natives near Devil’s Tower, but elsewhere in North America the native religions have been disrupted and they are struggling to regain something which was almost lost. There are a lot more people in the native community who see the significance of their ancestral beliefs to their cultural identity, than those you actual make a spiritual connection with those beliefs.

Many climbers do make a spiritual connection with their environment, only we do not have a long tradition to channel that spirituality. Mountaineers who frequent Mount Everest often adopt the beliefs of the locals, because they feel the same spiritual connection to the place as the locals do. If you are visiting Devil’s Tower, learning a bit more about Native beliefs and legend may make your climb feel more spiritually significant. Are climbers allowed to attend the ceremonies in June?

I believe that mutual respect would be mutually beneficial.

Teth

[Andrew]

I have respect for other beleifs and if the naitives want to have us respect their claim for the month of June, I think it should be left alone on that month.

As for the tower being offlimits for everyone but natives and them taking over the land, I think that's a rather selfish and unspiritual thing to do.

Not to sound harsh, but all land on the earth is everyone's to enjoy. Just because someone was here first, doesn't mean they own it. How can you really own land? It was here before us.

Furthermore, it is totally possible that if the tower was given up to the natives, then they might start demanding other land and then it may never stop. That being said, I also think that the natives (being here before us) do have some rights to the land, esp. since they were kinda pushed away from it in a rather un-neighbourly way by settlers.

Later.

[Fred]

How can you really own land? It was here before us.

uh... lots of people own land Andrew. Claiming land is not a new thing.

http://www.mls.ca

[Stevo]

I was at Devils Tower last year, and I'm pretty sure from the blurb at the National Park information centre that the native legend has the seven sisters raised into the sky as the stars of the Pleiades open cluster (Messier 45), not as the Big Dipper (Ursa Major). This might seem pedantic of me, but it is a big difference to an astronomer!

Cheers
Steve

[mike]

Of all the places I've climbed, there is usually some ceremony or spiritualistic recognition required before climbing.

South America- small gifts of candy, tobacco, crystals, and alcohol buried at the bottom of the mountain. The Inca used to trek with whole cities of people to mountains hundreds of kms away, then populate entire mountains, with the spiritual leaders at the top and the more common folk nearer the bottom. This event was held in order to sacrifice virgins into the mouths of volcanoes to pacificy the mountains. I believe the highest evidence of these ceremonies has been discovered at around 6770M- some mountain whose anme starts with Ll....

Nepal- prayer flags and ceremony to show your respect for the mountain. Macupachure aka Fishtail near Pokara is forbidden to climb for spiritual reasons. Everest aka Sagamartha translates to 'Mother Goddess of the Earth'. Not sure what the translatioin is for Cholumunga- the Chinese name for it.

Eastern Europe- there is a fairly complicated toasting ritual, with a drink called Cha Cha, that takes place before each climb, once the bottom of the mountain is reached.

Africa- mountains are viewed as the lifes blood of the communities that surround them. Natural disasters caused by those same mountains are considered to have happened because the people disrespected the mountain.

Most cultures that live at the base of mountains show their mountains respect. As they do well deserve. They give us beauty, adventure, ariable land, fresh water, security etc.

I believe that N. America needs more areas where spiratual connection to the land is observed. I think that climbers should respect the natives traditions during June's festivities (kinda like insects in a church at easter- hard to focus on the ceremony when you're busy trying to swat flies).

I also think that the natives, rather than try and prevent people from climbing during the rest of the year, should devise a way: ritual, cermony, or whatever, so that climbers can enjoy the spirituality of the area themselves, while at the same time showing the natives the respect that, in my opinion, is warranted.

Mike

[The Teth]

Well said Mike.

[Andrew]

Fred,

You know what I mean. People claiming, buying and saying they own land, yes that's the way of the world... but the world is for everyone. Idon't think anyone should be able to restrict you from places.

Of course, the world's not like that and it's lofty to think things will ever change.

Yes, I know fred. People own land. LOL.

I was attempting to be earthy and spiritual.

Andrew

How can you really own land? It was here before us.

uh... lots of people own land Andrew. Claiming land is not a new thing.

http://www.mls.ca

[Fred]

hehe was just teasing ya turkey

later dude