top-roping through anchors

[Fred]

I hate to be the police but I just heard of individuals top-roping directly through the rings on rap stations. Although you aren't at a safety risk from the achor itself failing you may be at risk from injuries inflicted by Martha if she finds out.

We spend lots of money on hardware for anchors. Lets try to preserve them. There is no need for this kind of unnecessary wear. Would you drive your car with the brake on?

peace

[mathieu]

Although you aren't at a safety risk from the anchor itself failing you may be at risk from injuries inflicted by Martha if she finds out.

Mot!!

Would you drive your car with the brake on?

good analogy

[martha]

WTF... who has been doing this????

Bunch of wankers.. seriously people.... the rope wears these rings out....

Ever been to Red Rocks or J-tree? You'll see why never to top rope through them!

That.. and what Fred said...

[Andrew]

Seriously? You're not supposed to use the rings as a TR anchor?

j/k

I wouldn't want to get to the top of a route in Terra Incognita to find the rap anchors have been worn paper-thin. That would be really annoying.

[Fred]

Andrew! You're one of those people we caught TR'ing through the rings on Montezumas!!!!

don't pretend like you know better

[Andrew]

Was I? I don't remember that. I always tell people you shouldn't use the rap rings as an anchor.

Oh well. Don't worry about me, I use my gear for the anchor.

Next.

Andrew! You're one of those people we caught TR'ing through the rings on Montezumas!!!!

don't pretend like you know better

[Fred]

LOL

yeah dude! you were totaly TR'ing through the rings on Montezuma's.

way to line yourself up for an execution hehehhe

peace

[martha]

Huh.

I don't remember catching andrew TRing through those rap rings....

I think he would remember me catching him though.. cause I would have definately tore a strip off him.

hehe.

[Fred]

I'm positive. I remember everything. I know I was there but Martha may not have been.

[Ropeguy]

Was I? I don't remember that. I always tell people you shouldn't use the rap rings as an anchor.

Oh well. Don't worry about me, I use my gear for the anchor.

Next.

Andrew! You're one of those people we caught TR'ing through the rings on Montezumas!!!!

don't pretend like you know better

ha,way to go dude...she's gonna smack you real good !

Hey martha what if you have brand new beaners and you just don't want to mark them up,,,,is it ok then?? to use the rings??

[martha]

Hey martha what if you have brand new beaners and you just don't want to mark them up,,,,is it ok then?? to use the rings??

I know you are just saying that cause you want me to come and smack you around.... you like it rough don't you Ropeguy?

[Ropeguy]

Oh yeah Mama....tie me up with my own rope and smack me around.....

I didn't realize all I have to do it tr off the rings to light you butt on fire!!!

[NB_Gecko]

K wow....
that's different. (Martha or Fred)

What if we used biners on the rings, would that be a safety hazard or hazardous to the rings, I'm a bit og a Gumby, and I really don't want to come on the scene being known as the one to wreck rap rings.

[martha]

Hey Man,

You should put your Biners into the Bolt Hangers themselves assuming there is room with the rap ring in there. From that point create a proper anchor using your cordellette, webbing or slings.

The reason you shouldn't top rop directly through the rings is the rope wears down the metal and eventually you end up with anchors that look like this... which are SCARY when you get to the top of a climb and have to deal with them!

This bolt is actually only mildly worn. I have seen them that you could actually break them with your fingers. It takes surprisingly little time to happen especially with the dirt from the ground on your rope wearing on them like sand paper.



http://www.climbeasterncanada.com/album ... ?pic_id=12

[NB_Gecko]

OK, thanks sounds goood.

And that doesn't hurt the ring or the rest of the set-up, or is it generally the same as using the anchors with draws?

[Fred]

You should put your Biners into the Bolt Hangers themselves assuming there is room with the rap ring in there.

This is note true. With FIXE rap ring stations comonly found in these parts you can clip your biner directly in the rings. For older rap stations that may have regular bolt hangers and mailons, never build your anchor on the mailons. Lift the mailons and put your locking biners underneath directly in the hangers.

The reason you shouldn't top rop directly through the rings is the rope wears down the metal and eventually you end up with anchors that look like this...

This is debatable with modern FIXE rap ring bolt anchors. The new anchor rings spin full 360 (unlike d-shaped mailons or open shuts) so the rope never wears in the same spot. The argument however is that it does wear some and there is no need. Like I said in my original post UNNECESSARY WEAR.

The bottom line is... Don't TR through any anchors. Only use fixed hardware to rap off.

[Fred]

just to clarify here is a photo of the most common anchors you will find in NB. You CAN put your biner directly in the rings on these. You SHOULD only put your rope through the rings to rappel (i.e. no top-roping or sport lowering).

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_imag ... 1790730876

[*Chris*]

This is a good thread. I was not aware that being lowered via the rings off a sport climb was a bad idea. I guessed TR was a bad idea but I suspected it was due to bad force multiplication and not gradual wear on the hardware. I'll take the time to rap in the future rather than a quick lower off.

[Fred]

Chirs, when you have an anchor built (i.e. biners throught the rings and slings and back to back binners for your rope) it's perfectly fine to lower off to your heart's content.

When I say lower off I mean... Sport climbers often don't cary anything to anchor themselves in with when they go to retrieve an anchor. They use a quickdraw to hold their weight off the rope. Staying tied in to the rope the grab a big loop below them, feed it through the rings, tie an eight on a bight, clip it to them with a locking biner, then untie the rope through their harness. Voila!. Now you are tied through the rings and ready to be lowered. This is how most hardware at sport crags get worn through so fast (re: the photo that Cara showed). Mind you this situation is great improved with these new round rings as opposed to d-shape metal (mailons or sport shuts).

I'll show ya what I mean next time we are out. It's difficult to explain.

[Shawn B]

What ever happened to equalization in an anchor? A biner on each ring does not provide that. Don't be so damned lazy to set a proper anchor. And if you don't know how to set a proper anchor, you have no business in climbing. No excuses. You are putting your life and those with you in jeopardy. Learn or stay the f home or in the gym. There is more and more sketch happening all the time from crappy anchors to poor belaying. Rant out.

[Fred]

What ever happened to equalization in an anchor? A biner on each ring does not provide that. Don't be so damned lazy to set a proper anchor. And if you don't know how to set a proper anchor, you have no business in climbing. No excuses. You are putting your life and those with you in jeopardy. Learn or stay the f home or in the gym. There is more and more sketch happening all the time from crappy anchors to poor belaying. Rant out.

Shawn,

The original post was intended for much worse than that. Feeding the rope directly through the anchor TR'ing. I don't think anyone is suggesting putting ONLY binners in the anchor. They are simply suggesting where do those two biners (the ones part of the 4 biner equalization system with slings) clip into the hardware. The rest (equalization) was left out as a given. Perhaps we should have made that more clear.

Always 4 binners, two slings, equalized anchors, clip into rings on FIXE rap ring hangers or clip directly into bolt hangers (not chains or mailons).

Increasing sketchyness is an understatement.

cheers

[Fred]

From that point create a proper anchor using your cordellette, webbing or slings.

[*Chris*]

Fred,

I know precisely what you're describing. I used essentially that technique last time I was out. In fact, it's illustrated (and presumably endorsed) in petzl's 2006 catalog (http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportCatalogue p131). If that's incorrect than it's indeed new info to me.

Shawn B.

I'm talking about lowering off a sport climb once reaching a set of rap rings. I'm not talking about the practice of using 2 biners or draws as a TR anchor. Lay off.

[Fred]

I use two long quickdraws all the time on sport routes. The system is as equalized as a tied eight with 4 binners and the system is perfectly redundant. It's not sketch in my opinion but that is a matter or personal choice. Feeding the rope through two biners ONLY however is a different story.

[Shawn B]

lay off???

[Fred]

LOL

I think he meant, belay off!!!!!

[Fred]

If that's incorrect than it's indeed new info to me.

as I mentioned before, it's not unsafe or incorect, it just puts wear on the hardware

overtime however with d-shaped hardware it can become excruciatingly dangerous (re: martha's photo) if wear persists (i.e. heavy traffic areas like Vegas, Kentucky, Owens etc)

[Fred]

check this puppy out.

[Fred]

here is another worn out cold shut

[Shawn B]

No Fred, I think that they meant to clip each ring or bolt with one biner and tr off of those. I don't think it was a given that they would extend it further with slings or draws. I realize the original purpose was that people were placing unnecessary wear on fixed hardware. I didn't even bother ranting about that as it seemed to be ranted out. I was just adding my thoughts and voicing my growing intolerance of the practices of some people. I agree with you that a long draw on each bolt is ok for sport climbing (albeit I use a locker on each end of both draws). It still isn't ideal but better than some other options. And if someone is offended by me voicing my intolerance, maybe they are defensive for a reason. I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular but if it causes someone to take a look at their practices I think that is a good thing...regardless of how abrupt they may feel I am. Setting an equalized and redundant anchor is not rocket science. Don't be lazy. Lowering off is accepted as ok but why not rap if it extends the life of fixed gear? (lower off's excluded of course).