Death of Canadian maps

[Some Good]

Hello,

I'm an occasional lurker and thought some of you may be interested in this. It seems that the feds are planning on getting rid of paper maps in Canada.To all climbers who use maps or plan to some day (GPS's are great but not nearly as reliable, and often difficult to use without a map).

Please take a few minutes to go to; http://www.mapsforcanadians.ca

Copy the letter (upper left of page) to Gary Lunn, the Minister of Natural Resources;

Lunn.G@parl.gc.ca

Also copy your local MP who you can find at;

http://canada.gc.ca/directories/direct_e.html#mp

Hopefully there are other map nerds out there. I know I just used a map to find Cape Clear on Oct 1st. Beautiful up there.

[The Teth]

If this is not just some internet hoax, then this is a serious problem for Canada. I emailed Gary to find out what is going on. Form letters are easy, but original letters probably carry more weight.

I have the digital data and the equipment to print full sized topo maps at work, but the ink fades quickly in the sun and will not stand up to dampness. They are just not the same as the high quality professionally produced topo sheets, and only in mass production are professional quality maps like that affordable.

Consider who uses these maps:
- Fire fighters fighting forest fires.
- Search and rescue
- Engineers dealing with floods.
- Disaster relief coordinators
- Department of Defence
- Geologists
- Foresters
- Ecologists
- Hunters/trappers
- Hikers
- Climbers

Who have I missed? Many of these groups have GIS systems now, but all those computer maps do you no good in the field. I would rather carry a paper map on a long hike than a laptop.

Teth Cleveland

[The Mitt]

We at DND have pretty much stoped using those paper maps. We make our own now. Although I am on side with you that its a resource that we cannot see chopped by the gov.

Mitt

[The Teth]

Does DND have plotter ink that is water resistant and does not fade in the sun? If so, were do they get it? Or, do they use the same technology as Natural Resources? (Expensive and not practical for small run stuff.) If there is better ink available, there are times where I could really use it, even if it cost a bit more. I am using a 42" HP DesignJet 500ps, and my maps (particularly magenta) are fading in six months or less in the office, with only the black remaining after two years.

Teth

[*Chris*]

The Teth,

At work I'm running the HP DesignJet 800. I've not had any fading problems with field maps but admittedly, my maps are more likely to see a violent demise rather than death from old age. I'm confident we get the cheap ink (gov. of NB) but we've developed a system to do 42'' maps with a a 24'' laminator. If you have one, try this:

1)Fold in half...
2)Laminate...
3)Cut off excess plastic...
4)Slit open all edges except the one with the fold...
5)Fold over the other way...
6)Laminate...
7)Again trim excess and slit all but folded edge.

The upshot is that you get a large waterproof map using a normal sized laminating machine. The downshot is that it's tricky and the end product has a permenant crease in the middle. Also no good if you like folding maps rather than rolling them.

P.s. for those without access to GIS and plotters... ending topo program is lousy!

[Fred]

have you guys ever seen that waterproof paper that almost feels like money (fabric)? I know Fundy Park prints large trail maps on this stuff. It works great and is very tear resistant.

[*Chris*]

Fred,

Is it different than the typical "Rite In the Rain" paper? I've printed airphotos to that stuff but the color gets distorted.

[Fred]

I would think it is. I suspect it's a special type of fabric on which they print then coat with some tipe of wax seal or something. It's very resistant. Feels kinda like crumpled up money but a bit thicker and waxier. It's the shizo. At one point, I actualy thought about printing a fold out compressed guidebook on this stuff.

[The Teth]

I think some of the Topo maps you can buy at MEC are printed on Tyvek. It is the same material they put on the outside of a house before they put the siding/shingles on. I used to have a bysicle jacket made out of it. Light, waterproof, and almost impossible to tear.

I don’t have a laminater, but that is a cool trick for laminating large maps on a small laminater. I wonder if the plastic blocks the UV portion of the light?

Teth

[PaulB]

Is it different than the typical "Rite In the Rain" paper? I've printed airphotos to that stuff but the color gets distorted.

As mentioned, the stuff Fred was referring to is Tyvek, which I don't believe is available for use with a standard inkjet printer. However, National Geographic sells "Adventure Paper", which I've found works exactly as advertised (waterproof, tear-resistant). The downside is you're limited to 11" x 17" sheets. I've bought it at the MEC in Vancouver, but I don't think they sell it online.

As for the "end of paper maps", I think the government is simply getting out of the printing business. As long as they make the digital data available (which they will for a fee) private companies will produce paper maps for as long as there is a market for them. Gem Trek already does this for the Rockies, as does Canada Map Store.com for BC. They will undoubtedly expand their product offerings if the government follows through with its plans.

Personally, I think this would be a good thing as I suspect that the private sector will quickly resolve the issue of having a collection of topo maps which use a mix of datums (NAD27, NAD83), units (imperial & metric) and contour intervals (10m, 20m, 40m, 25', 50', 100') such that when you lay adjacent maps side by side, the UTM grid and contour lines may, or may not, match up.

[dcentral]

I did see the other day you could buy bundles printer friendly waterproof paper. It came in a package like you'd buy any pack of paper from staples.

It was a local college campus book store. I think they offer a lot of trade training that works out side. I haven't seen them anywhere else.

It was kind of expensive, but the price of some of the note books is a bit over the top so overall it was a pretty good deal.

For search and rescue we have a bunch of utm maps printed and lamanaited. They are all right but a bit of a pain in the ass since you have to roll them up and they don't really fit in your pack well.

But often is the case for SAR those maps aren't very useful anyway seeing as you need much finer detail for those on the ground. They are great for SAR base.

But in most instances the person ends up getting lost in area that isn't covered well by any map whether they be public or private.

So what we have done is purchasing some mapping software and a printer, and we are all supposed to have a ziplock bag in our 24 hour packs so we stick maps in there if we need too protect them.

[mathieu]

Anybody bought a map from NRCan that was published lately?? IF you did you may have found yourself lost in the bush cause they decided to not print the declination for the map WTF, this is basic information required on each map. All they provide is a www. adress, really freakin useful. Thats when I figured they were done doing what they did.

I can see why people are getting upset at this but overall I don't really have much use for the large maps anyways, usually I'm concerned with one small corner of it but I can see they would be usefull if you want to navigate using far off peaks.

One good example of the private sector outdoing the government is the Bugaboo Climbers map vs the NRCan maps. The Climbers map is centered on the bugaboo's group while the NRCan map had spilt up the area in two because, well because that's how it fell right on the divider line between 82K10 and 82K15. They found a market and tailored to it.

[dcentral]

Why would you been in the bush and not know the declination?

[mathieu]

Was I supposed to look it up before leaving? I know it's give or take 20 degrees in this part of the world but nonetheless, if a map is published with the intention of navigation then the declination is a critical part of the map.

[dcentral]

Yes I personally do think you should know before you leave -- being a person who looks for lost people. It is basically plus or minus 20 but here in Victoria it is 19 so if I over shot and went with 21 that could put me far off my intended mark.

Every degree you are off for every km you walk you'll be 17.5 m off your destination.

Here's a look up tool
http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/field/mdcalc_e.php

[mathieu]

So you think putting a declination on a map is useless information. If you fly to France tomorrow and buy a map, how would you adjust your compass/bearing.

[dcentral]

I'm not saying it's useless information. What I'm saying is it's something you should know before you go into the woods. If it's not on the maps look it up.

What if you were crossing a river and had to ditch your pack and your maps were ruined or lost down stream but you had your compass around your neck. Don't you think knowing the declination before hand might be useful?

[*Chris*]

Sounds like public outcry wins again... read link:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2 ... ffice.html

[The Teth]

Well, it looks like the letter writing campaign was successful. By the way, this was the email I sent Gary last Friday from my Provincial Government email account. Maybe it made a difference.

Gary:

I have heard that the Federal Government has decided to stop printing topographic maps. Is this true or is it an internet hoax?

Aside from the fact that mapping our territory is an important part of our sovereignty claims over the north, these printed maps are also an essential service for Canadians. From use in search and rescue, to recreational hiking, to forestry, mining, and disaster response, it is important to have readily available printed maps for anywhere in our country.

I am a Cartographer and a GIS Analyst. There are great advantages to digital topographic data, but it can not replace the professionally printed topographic map. Maps on GPS devices are helpful, but very limited. GPS devices are best used in conjunction with a printed map. Some GIS professionals such as myself have access to plotters and can print large maps, but the ink available on most plotters will not hold up to outdoor conditions. The ink fades and will not stand up to dampness.

There has been no change in technology which has had any significant effect on the need for high quality printed topographic maps. That is my professional opinion.


Teth Cleveland, GIS Coordinator
Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations